AirTran MEC Chair message.

[waveflyer]

QF speaks for very few of us- and definitely not me. The words and tone of that post is absurd

 

[SWA Bubba]

Yes, that's right. We should have let that garbage that Qweef posted go completely unchallenged.

How about, instead, if a few of his coworkers put him in his place, so we wouldn't have to?

Unless, of course, you agree with Qweef.

You are 100% correct, Ty, in that what he posted is garbage. He doesn't speak for me, or for more than one or two other disgruntled dumbasses, if that. He's an sad and angry man whose post was designed to do one thing, and one thing alone: stir up the pot. It bothered ME reading it, especially knowing how hurtful it would be to all of you.

I'd say ignore him, because after all, it is nothing but BS vitriol desiigned to piss you off, but I know ignoring it is not really possible. However, please remember that the overwhelming majority of real Southwest pilots do not agree with him. We understand that we're in this together, and are trying our best to make this work.

Bubba

PS- I was actually originally going to wait a little while to respond, just to see how many more good insulting allusions to QF's screen name you all could make ("Queef" is my favorite), but I didn't want you to think that there weren't guys on this side of the partition defending your anger.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Sorry Bubba I forgot.......Little quiteflight must have that warrior spirit thing going, you can even see it in his avatar!

Dan-- I think it's obvious that one angry poster does not an entire pilot group's attitude make. And you know that, but you did manage to use the opportunity to make another cheap attack at the group as a whole. Careful--your obvious lack of impartiality is showing again.

However, that was actually a very good use of your running "warrior spirit" thing, tying it to his avatar. That was your best one yet. Now if only you used your powers for good, instead of just to join the pack of pot stirrers....

Bubba

 

[PCL_128]

I believe the language is there, its just a matter of pushing the issue. Gary may resist initially, but if he sees angry pilot who truly want to leave SWA, he might feel inclined to assist them in that endeavour.

Oh, I don't think Gary would be the problem. Gary's a smart guy, so I'm sure he'd jump at the opportunity to let a bunch of guys leave who would rather be somewhere else. The real problem would be with Delta and DALPA.

 

[Lear70]

Because people like yourself respond to things like that. Your mistake.

Oh yes, this thread is CLEARLY all my fault, and I am a very, very bad man...

Whatever. *snicker*

 

[Scoot 11]

From AT MEC Chair...

Fellow Southwest Pilots (Uh, what?!),

Yes, I just did that, and for good reason. We are all Southwest pilots. (No WE are not.)

I know what you’re thinking, so before you start sending me nasty e-mails threatening my dog, let me explain.

Think back to the SWAPA Round-ups and the presentations made during the road shows for the seniority integration agreement. The overriding theme was that when we had an SIA, and after the Date of Corporate Closing (DOCC) and after the Single Operating Certificate (SOC) was granted, that we would be Southwest pilots and treated as such. However, the reality doesn’t look like what we expected. (Things change.)

We don’t feel like Southwest pilots. (You shouldn't because you're not. Comprende?) Or at least we don’t feel like we think Southwest pilots should feel (I'm sorry Oprah, what was that?), and that’s not good. It’s not good for us; it’s not good for the Company.

We are all too familiar with the history of the seniority integration process, and the contentiousness that it brought. There were many arguments, even among close friends, and many scars from that engagement. At times it felt like civil war.

Eventually, with a transition plan in place, things began to settle down. Despite our future loss of seniority (here we go...), I think we began to move on. There were a few small improvements to our quality of life: reduced insurance costs, a kinder-gentler scheduling department, new leadership in the training department, and Rob Amsler in the Chief Pilot’s Office. It was just a morsel of the Southwest culture.(You were lucky to get those considering you're not Southwest pilots.)

But then, as it often seems to do, the other shoe dropped. Southwest announced the B-717 sublease tentative agreement with Delta. (If this came as a surprise to any of you, you deserve to feel like a moron.)

In an instant, all of the goodwill and trust that management had worked to cultivate with our pilots vanished. Gone. Kaput. (Guess it wasn't true "trust" in the first place.) On top of that, some of the messaging from SWAPA on the day the B-717 deal was announced was read by many of our pilots as gloating. (You guys appear more and more sensitive with each passing day.)

Can these problems be fixed? I hope so — and believe so — not for only for our sakes, but for the sake of our Company. (At the rate the Tranny's are screwing up in transition training and failing IOE, it's doubtful there will be enough of you left to do any noticeable harm.)

First of all, we are all Southwest pilots. (Hasn't this been covered already?) It is time that we are recognized as such. (Why? You work for Critter therefore you are not SWA pilots.) There is only one master seniority list, and our names are on it, intertwined with our friends and colleagues across the partition. We are not in a “pool” waiting for a seniority number — we already have one; we fly Southwest owned and leased airplanes with a different paint scheme; and, our corporate address is no longer Orlando, Florida — it is Love Field, in Dallas, Texas, the home of our (Not yours) company, Southwest Airlines.

The MEC has tasked our Negotiating Committee with engaging the company (read: begin whining more loudly NC!) to ease the burden of this transition on our pilots — the Southwest pilots represented by ALPA. (For the record, there are currently NO SWA pilots represented by ALPA. There never have been.) Yesterday, the NC started that process by meeting with management in Dallas. The conversation was wide-ranging and overall could be described as fairly productive. To continue our talks, we are making arrangements to schedule a follow-up meeting in the coming weeks.

On Monday, Captain Jim Gallagher and I will join ALPA executive administrator Capt. Tim Canoll and ALPA Directors Bruce York and Jon Cohen in Dallas for a meeting with SWAPA to move forward the process of transferring representation. While I believe the events of the past few weeks demonstrate the benefit of ALPA to our pilots, it is in the long-term interest of all Southwest pilots to have a single voice (This is actually a valid point. So you're up to 1 now.), regardless of the color of the airplane they are flying. It is also important that SWAPA recognize that former AirTran pilots will soon comprise almost a quarter of their membership, and it is to their benefit to consider the impact of their actions and statements on the future of the organization in a post-SOC world. (Was that a threat?)

I spent most of this week meeting with the MEC, discussing these issues. For a while, we were joined by Southwest Executive Vice President & Chief Operating Officer Mike Van de Ven as well as Southwest Executive Vice President & Chief Commercial Officer Bob Jordan. We shared with them all of the feedback that you have given us over the past few weeks, both good and bad. We were brutally honest and I think they appreciated it. I also think they now understand that there is a unique opportunity for the Company to demonstrate the values for which it is famous, not the least of which is its commitment to its employees. (Good thing you cleared that up for them. Amazing they were able to do it for 40+ years without you Jim.)

Having spent four years in Missouri, the “Show Me State,” I learned a good deal about Midwestern values and skepticism. True character is displayed through action, not words. (If this is true, could you ask your pilots to shut up and color? Come to work as a SWA pilot AFTER completing transition training and IOE with hat in hand like the rest of us did. Be quiet, play nice, fly, get paid and go home.) This is the time for Southwest management to show me, and you, that we are all an integral part of the team. I trust that they will. (Don't count on it.)

I’ll see you at the airport.

Capt. Jim Morris, Chairman
Your ATN Master Executive Council (ATN? Thought you said you were SWA ALPA...)

I would refer to you as Sir, but that is a title reserved for Gentlemen!
You are nothing but an internet troll hiding behind a keyboard. Kharma is a bitch!

 

[jonjuan]

Oh, I don't think Gary would be the problem. Gary's a smart guy, so I'm sure he'd jump at the opportunity to let a bunch of guys leave who would rather be somewhere else. The real problem would be with Delta and DALPA.

Delta and i believe their svp of operations has stated emphatically that no pilots will come to delta with the 717s, something like "let me assure you...". I would guess Richard Anderson would stop it from happening as Gary would.

 

[fam62c]

I wish the Airtran guys good luck on the pay parity thing, but I don't think there's a chance in hell of this going anywhere. I don't mean to bust any bubbles but the money was in the first agreement that was voted down by the MEC, and now its long gone. I always thought it best for the AAI guys to get over here ASAP on that open bid. Some decided they wanted better quality of life on the 717. Even before all of this, I thought that was a mistake. We've all made our votes. I don't see Gary changing anything. Maybe announcing ATL as a base. Thats about it.

I don't know what will change but something will have to because the majority of the AT pilots were awarded transition bid vacancies on the AT side that will never exist. The 717 retirement has opened up a can of worms and transition/vacancy language will have to be reworked or there will be a huge pile of grievances. At a minimum I think they will end up pay protecting all AT pilots who bid SW 737 FO if they attempt to move anybody over to SW with a 717 CA or FO bid first.

The only alternative I see is throwing out the transition bid entirely and bidding each SW transition class by AT seniority with no base and/or aircraft type exceptions and doing a million "backfill" training events between aircraft types. One way or another the company is going to have to come to AT ALPA for contract relief and this time it will have to be in a LOA that WILL have to be ratified by the membership. There's no more free lunch here, there will need to be a fair trade this time. I don't think that the SW CEO can be as heavy-handed this time because the AT guys are already on the list (that threat is removed) and the whole (and growing) SW international operation is on the AT side and may be for many, many years. This time he will be better off with the carrot than the stick. It's time to buy Manhattan with beads instead of threatening to shoot the Indians

 

[fam62c]

QF speaks for very few of us- and definitely not me. The words and tone of that post is absurd

I think there's a good chance that QF isn't a SW pilot, just a bored person who likes to stir things up.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

I've been off here for awhile.

Couple things.

First, Karma, I like your avatar! Where's the Ride the Lightning bro, like his too!

Second, to the OP, chill the flock out. Gotta let it go man, just let it go. We are all pawns in this game.

-C

Still here, just lurking. Rock on!!!!!

 

[maxblast72]

Yes. I believe it will be around until the last 717 leaves property for Delta and the last 737 transitions to Southwest which, according to press release and memos to us from management, means almost the end of 2015. What part of "36 717's to Delta in 2015 at 3 per month" do you not believe?

I don't think the last 717 flight will occur in December 2015. I believe once the 2015 summer travel season is over and the aircraft utilization drops for fall (normally mid-August), the last 15-20 B717s get parked for Delta to come get them as able.

Have to disagree with you there. Our international flying has higher yields than almost anything domestic we operate. You're going to take marginal domestic feed and kill it as the 717's transition to Delta and leave yourself with increasingly only-737 routes, including the International.

AirTran is going to continue to be profitable right up to the last year when the infrastructure to support the AirTran operation (Dispatchers, etc) becomes more than the revenue stream produced by the last 36 717's to leave and the last 30+ 737's to cross over.

I believe SWA will have international capabilities by early to mid 2014 and will have all 52 AirTran B737-700s converted to SWA livery by the end of 2014. SWA brand will pull more revenue internationally (especially for flights originating in the western part of the US). I really doubt there will be any AirTran international in 2015.

Everyone is making less money than they were this time last year, working less efficient trips, more days away from home, less commutable, and now they gutted a major part of the SIA that you helped negotiate, which included your CA seat. You're telling me that's OK with you?

There are still guys pulling 90-100 hrs credit per month (just watch the reserve availability grid). I imagine most of the pilots that are getting that much are pretty active with FLICA alerts. Not sure whether B717 or B737 or which bases are doing better with respect to getting hours.

I was in the room last July for the SWAPA/ATN Gary Kelly meeting. I heard Gary and Mike Van de Ven state that the B717 economics with $3/gallon Jet A and SWA labor rates were not good. From that point on, I knew SWA would get rid of the 2nd fleet type if they could. I wasn't sure if they would find someone to take that much lift off their hands, but I wasn't too shocked when I read the Delta MEC Chair's letter explaining how the B717 could be used to replace 50 seaters. Neither the B717 or B737-300 is ideal, but the economics of a 2nd fleet type and 20 less seats are too much to overcome.

I was hoping something with Boeing Capital or Rolls-Royce would tank the deal (as I could have made an additional $200K in 2015, 2016, and 2017). However, the SWA pay and non-aircraft specific CA retention slots were lost on August 18th. SIA #2 was ratified on Nov 7th.

The Southwest-AirTran ramp/operations agents arbitration award that was just issued on June 4th by 3 NMB arbitrators is just more proof that a straight DOH list was not a likely outcome had we gone to arbitration. It is time to move on and help Gary achieve his 15% ROIC profitability target. That is the only thing that will benefit both sides going forward.

 

[waveflyer]

Delta and i believe their svp of operations has stated emphatically that no pilots will come to delta with the 717s, something like "let me assure you...". I would guess Richard Anderson would stop it from happening as Gary would.

Has it been communicated how many AT pilots would LIKE the choice?

 

[Lear70]

I don't think the last 717 flight will occur in December 2015. I believe once the 2015 summer travel season is over and the aircraft utilization drops for fall (normally mid-August), the last 15-20 B717s get parked for Delta to come get them as able.

Yes, but that's my point. You asked if I really believed the planes would still be around in 2015 and I said yes, and that's why. As far as dates, I don't see a big difference between September and December. 90 days, either way, still has a lot of flying at AirTran until almost the end of 2015.

I believe SWA will have international capabilities by early to mid 2014 and will have all 52 AirTran B737-700s converted to SWA livery by the end of 2014. SWA brand will pull more revenue internationally (especially for flights originating in the western part of the US). I really doubt there will be any AirTran international in 2015.

While I certainly don't disagree with you that the SWA brand on international flying has MUCH more revenue and overall capacity expansion possibilities than a stand-alone AirTran (I see this as the ONLY avenue of expansion for Southwest for the next 10 years), I disagree with you on the conversion timeline.

You saw the chart, 45 days to convert an AirTran aircraft to SWA colors. Let's say, optimistically, with 3 conversion facilities running at full capacity and 2nd quarter 2014 starting to bring 52 aircraft over. 9 months with an aircraft pumped out every 45 days is 6 aircraft per line, 18 total aircraft by the end of 2014.

Another 24 aircraft in 2015 takes us up to 42 total, STILL leaving 10 aircraft still to be converted. They'd have to DOUBLE the number of lines, if not triple, to get them all done, not to mention if they miss that start date and international isn't up and running until end of 2nd or 3rd quarter, it will extend even further.

We'll see, but Frank already owes me a C-note on the 717 bet and I'd make a bet with you on this one, but you already owe me a bottle of Johnny Walker Blue, so until you pay up on the first bet, I'm not making any more...

There are still guys pulling 90-100 hrs credit per month (just watch the reserve availability grid). I imagine most of the pilots that are getting that much are pretty active with FLICA alerts. Not sure whether B717 or B737 or which bases are doing better with respect to getting hours.

It's the 717 in ATL that still has that capability and those guys (a buddy of mine lives here in BNA and we chat pretty regularly) are working 18-19 days a month to do it. Most of us aren't anywhere near that and if you look at the LVI's, they're down by at least 10-12% system-wide, especially on the 737.

I was in the room last July for the SWAPA/ATN Gary Kelly meeting. I heard Gary and Mike Van de Ven state that the B717 economics with $3/gallon Jet A and SWA labor rates were not good. From that point on, I knew SWA would get rid of the 2nd fleet type if they could. I wasn't sure if they would find someone to take that much lift off their hands, but I wasn't too shocked when I read the Delta MEC Chair's letter explaining how the B717 could be used to replace 50 seaters. Neither the B717 or B737-300 is ideal, but the economics of a 2nd fleet type and 20 less seats are too much to overcome.

You were also in the room in September when Russ McCrady with Joe Harris stood right there when we asked what happened if the 717's went away and so would our CA and ATL fence protections, not to mention 2nd 717 base. Their response: the money in the first deal with the price of fuel made them want to dump the planes ASAP. Not giving us the money in the 2nd deal made sure the 717 wasn't in jeopardy.

I was hoping something with Boeing Capital or Rolls-Royce would tank the deal (as I could have made an additional $200K in 2015, 2016, and 2017). However, the SWA pay and non-aircraft specific CA retention slots were lost on August 18th. SIA #2 was ratified on Nov 7th.

You know as well as I do that the non-aircraft-specific CA retention slots wouldn't have survived this scenario, either. And I quote, "In the event of an overall reduction in the NUMBER of Captain seats, pilots will bid their system seniority..." Combined with SL10, restricting any AirTran Captain from holding 737 CA until 1/1/15, and poof... non-aircraft-specific CA retention slots gone.

No argument that we'd rather have had the first SIA now that we know the outcome of everything, but that doesn't make it a "good" SIA, just better than what we got. Like I've said before, it would have been awfully nice if Gary Kelly had written the letter he wrote BEFORE the vote, rather than after, telling us that they would specifically start looking into non-integration possibilities if we didn't ratify the first one. It undoubtedly would have passed if he'd have been as open with the pilot group before the vote as he was just 48 hours after it, and we all know it.

The Southwest-AirTran ramp/operations agents arbitration award that was just issued on June 4th by 3 NMB arbitrators is just more proof that a straight DOH list was not a likely outcome had we gone to arbitration.

It's not proof of anything, except that the pay was a powerful argument. We set the bar for a 2.5-3 year DOH loss being "fair" and probably hosed everyone else in the process, not to mention that no other work group relies on seniority to "upgrade" into a 50-60% pay raise. Seniority is much more critical for our work group than any other airline employee. As such, you can't use a labor group's results that were BASED on our agreement to retroactively "predict" our outcome in arbitration. It's a paradoxical argument, not to mention non-similar in sensitivity to overall seniority placement in their overall income expectancy.

It is time to move on and help Gary achieve his 15% ROIC profitability target. That is the only thing that will benefit both sides going forward.

Can't argue there. We can argue the above until we're blue in the face, but it's time to move forward. How enthusiastically our pilots do so will be highly influenced by what, if anything, Gary Kelly offers our pilots as compensation for gutting the main portion of the SIA. In truth, the only thing that's left of value is the fact that we're all on the SWA seniority list, the no-furlough clause, and the 1/1/15 snap-up to Southwest's CBA. The rest of it is pretty much gone.

 

[Lear70]

Has it been communicated how many AT pilots would LIKE the choice?

Yes.

It's my understanding that not only the MEC but also our Chief Pilots' office has communicated both to Bob Jordan and Gary Kelly that, in all likelihood, the bid to go to Delta would go senior.

 

[redflyer65]

No argument that we'd rather have had the first SIA now that we know the outcome of everything, but that doesn't make it a "good" SIA, just better than what we got. Like I've said before, it would have been awfully nice if Gary Kelly had written the letter he wrote BEFORE the vote, rather than after, telling us that they would specifically start looking into non-integration possibilities if we didn't ratify the first one..

Lear,

We had Southwest people on here coming out of the woodwork stating that you guys needed to tread carefully when dealing with GK and the GO, that they play hardball when it comes to contracts and getting the best deal (from their viewpoint). Nobody, I mean no one believed it. They all thought it was just sabre rattling by SW employees. In the end, we knew what we were talking about. Your MEC should have NEVER voted the way they did.....never! They should have let the pilots decided. That was a huge error. When Gary's letter came out, it was crickets. I wasn't surprised at all. I wish it hadn't gone down like that, but those on this side of the fence knew this was going to get ugly after the MEC vote. And SWAPA had nothing to do with that, but nobody was surprised. I honestly wish people would have believed what we were saying, we were being completely truthful. It's sad the way it turned out.

Why would Gary, a business man, show his hand with any move into the future. Would it have made a difference if he said this is the 'last deal'? I don't think so. The MEC would have just pushed back saying he's trying to twist arms to get a deal, so I propose it wouldn't have mattered. The course was set by the MEC. Period.

 

[malibuVride]

Oh, I don't think Gary would be the problem. Gary's a smart guy, so I'm sure he'd jump at the opportunity to let a bunch of guys leave who would rather be somewhere else. The real problem would be with Delta and DALPA.

I would like to think there is a way to allow those in favor to make the transition to DL. I'm certainly no expert on the frag language but if it has any teeth, then I think Gary Kelly would be bound to send us with the planes. Or atleast make a legitimate attempt. One can only dream at this point I guess.

And I agree with Lear, that bid would go fiarly senior. Indeed everyone would win that way. The presence of ATN pilots at DL wouldn't 'harm' them, yet the SLI would actually be fair. Those who choose to stay at SWA would be happy with their choice, hence happier SWA pilots. The RSW pilots would be happier as well. I would think Gary K would push pretty hard to make this happen!

 

[PCL_128]

I would think Gary K would push pretty hard to make this happen!

Gary might be concerned at how it would look for his company if the bid went ultra-senior and almost every AirTran pilot was bidding for Delta instead of the supposedly utopian Southwest. Honestly, I'm halfway up the FO list, and I doubt I could hold a Delta slot if they took even 1,000 pilots.

 

[texman]

PCL, would 36 of the 717's after 2015 trigger the frag clause? Would that be 30% of AT flying or 100%?

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

We had Southwest people on here coming out of the woodwork stating that you guys needed to tread carefully when dealing with GK and the GO, that they play hardball when it comes to contracts and getting the best deal (from their viewpoint). Nobody, I mean no one believed it. They all thought it was just sabre rattling by SW employees. In the end, we knew what we were talking about. Your MEC should have NEVER voted the way they did.....never! They should have let the pilots decided. That was a huge error. When Gary's letter came out, it was crickets. I wasn't surprised at all. I wish it hadn't gone down like that, but those on this side of the fence knew this was going to get ugly after the MEC vote. And SWAPA had nothing to do with that, but nobody was surprised. I honestly wish people would have believed what we were saying, we were being completely truthful. It's sad the way it turned out.

You're absolutely right... We thought it was sabre rattling and you were right in what happened afterwards.

Why would Gary, a business man, show his hand with any move into the future.

That doesn't make any sense, unless you are saying he WANTED us to turn down the first offer so he could take the money off the table without looking like the bad guy. If he was being honest there was no reason not to tell us his plans IN ADVANCE if we refused the SIA. You only hide your cards if you have a surprise planned for your opponent.

Would it have made a difference if he said this is the 'last deal'? I don't think so. The MEC would have just pushed back saying he's trying to twist arms to get a deal, so I propose it wouldn't have mattered. The course was set by the MEC. Period.

I will always feel that GK could have told us the non-integration plan 48 hours before he threatened it. The truth is he DID twist arms to get the 2nd deal. That much is fact. And yes, I know what the sentiment was both before the SIA vote and after the threat letter 48 hours later. It would have made a difference.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, would 36 of the 717's after 2015 trigger the frag clause? Would that be 30% of AT flying or 100%?

I would argue that it does. I would say that the clause is actually triggered in 2014, the first full year of transfers. Of course, I'm sure some very smart attorneys at Delta or Southwest could find some pretty good arguments that it doesn't. Such is the nature of contract language.