Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Airtran got played?

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
This is why SWAPA claimed that this was not the venue for this type of complaint. The DRC is for list or other administrative discrepancies. If Jarvis gives a ruling in favor of ALPA, SWAPA will be required to go seek the remedy from SWA for another union. Do you see any problems with this? If SWA says no, what is ALPA to do now. They will probably have to take SWAPA and SWA to court (in different filings), all while the AT dues are rapidly dissapearing. This complaint should have went through the court system, but this was chosen for expediency. If anything, it will be entertaining. The only quick resolution would be if Jarvis does not award anything to AT, but he is an arbitrator so I am sure he will try and split the baby. Strap in for a long ride!
 
Last edited:
Kharma Police said:
Is there a recording of the MEC meeting when you helped lead the charge to torpedo AP1?
Click to expand...
Yup. No secret there. I didn't like AIP 1 and I didn't like AIP 2 either. I voted yes on the SIA (AIP 2) because the pilot group believed the threats coming from MV and other SWA management, aided by the Merger Committee ("If you want to work for SWA, vote Yes. If not, vote No") and was imploding. If we hadn't passed AIP 2, we would have gone towards arbitration, the threats would have become more overt and direct, and while I believe ultimately we would have been integrated, the majority of the pilots believed the threats and probably would have gone begging for a staple.

This was the internal conversation at the last MC/NC session where I was the last lone "No" vote holdout. And yes, there's notes on that, too.
 
slaquer5 said:
It really does not matter what the arbitrator says. This is just step one of many.

SWA can just say NO to anything that the arbitrator rules on .
Click to expand...
No, they can't. When they do that, it goes to the full NMB board to be upheld. The NMB can fine the company tens of thousands of dollars every day until they comply.

If the Arbitrator issues a ruling and any appeal by SWAPA fails, SWA WILL implement the ruling. I also predict that if the ruling has anything in it like I mentioned before, there will be many more DRC, NMB and probably legal filings to come for many, many years.
 
FlyinGuy said:
This is why SWAPA claimed that this was not the venue for this type of complaint. The DRC is for list or other administrative discrepancies. If Jarvis gives a ruling in favor of ALPA, SWAPA will be required to go seek the remedy from SWA for another union. Do you see any problems with this? If SWA says no, what is ALPA to do now. They will probably have to take SWAPA and SWA to court (in different filings), all while the AT dues are rapidly dissapearing. This complaint should have went through the court system, but this was chosen for expediency. If anything, it will be entertaining. The only quick resolution would be if Jarvis does not award anything to AT, but he is an arbitrator so I am sure he will try and split the baby. Strap in for a long ride!
Click to expand...

^^^ THIS ^^^

There will be many more court battles to come, both in DRC and the legal system, if an award comes out that changes items that were in the SLI in it and uses the basis of either SWA changing the deal after the fact (717's going away) or tampering with the results (veiled threats/intimidation) in the decision explanation from Jarvits.

This is going to drag out just like USAirways/AWA, just in a different way. SWA management should never have stuck their nose in an A-M / M-B seniority negotiation. In fact, I find it a violation of the text and premise of Allegheny-Mohawk that management was involved at all. It says the seniority integration is between two unions, not two unions and their management teams. That's why every OTHER airline management stays out of it, they don't want to get dragged into court for years to come for tampering with the results of A-M negotiations.

Like you said, strap in, it's going to be a long, bumpy ride.
 
Lear70 said:
Yup. No secret there. I didn't like AIP 1 and I didn't like AIP 2 either. I voted yes on the SIA (AIP 2) because the pilot group believed the threats coming from MV and other SWA management, aided by the Merger Committee ("If you want to work for SWA, vote Yes. If not, vote No") and was imploding. If we hadn't passed AIP 2, we would have gone towards arbitration, the threats would have become more overt and direct, and while I believe ultimately we would have been integrated, the majority of the pilots believed the threats and probably would have gone begging for a staple.

This was the internal conversation at the last MC/NC session where I was the last lone "No" vote holdout. And yes, there's notes on that, too.
Click to expand...

Nice spin.
 
Lear..Ive read your email to Frank Early after the MEC voted no on AIP1. You sounded like a frightened boy. "Frank im really freaking out man" "I had no idea the threats were so specific" You email him *********************ing your pants and then post on forums flexing your muscles. I cant remember the rest of your email but boy was it a gem. It had "surrender monkey" written all over it. If there is one thing the DFR lawsuit has done, It has exposed the truth. The total lack of integrity between your email to Frank an you public forum stance is disappointing.
 
Oh and the email from Bruce York to SH stating.."not only do I recommend the MEC sending AIP2 out to the pilot group, I also recommended the first to be sent out". But our MEC at the time claimed the lawyers never said that. The truth is all in writing.
 
PCL_128 said:
(except for Tom Winsor making an ass of himself by saying that the SWA pilots would be thrilled if the AirTran pilots had been put out on the street).
Click to expand...

Bull.

Actually it was your Counsel that made that statement. I simply agreed with him. Maybe you weren't copied on the transcript.

And he didn't ask if our pilots "would be thrilled if the AirTran pilots had been put out on the street."

He asked if, in my opinion, our pilots would be delighted if the AirTran pilot were not integrated into the operations of Southwest.

The answer to that question is "Yes." I never wanted anyone on the street. The vast majority of Southwest pilots do not want anybody on the street. Having been furloughed before I have a good perspective of that.

I thought you would have learned your lesson about cyber-bullying. Your relevance continues to wane on this topic.

Tom Winsor
 
Give it up Lear70 you are Finally a Southwest Pilot (what you always wanted).

PLC - I too thought you learning a valuable lesson this week.
 
It is my understanding that these proceedings were held in executive session. So don't expect any overt rebuttals to the sophistry of a handful of individuals in this venue.

You aren't anonymous and anything you post here is discoverable.
 
The good thing about SW buying AT. Everyone in the industry realized (more importantly SW) that we renewed their subscription to behind the times. "Oh this is how we have always done it",. Just wait to you all trip trade.

stuck in the 80s you might as well buy a trans am...

This is my opinion.
 
funnyman12 said:
Lear..Ive read your email to Frank Early after the MEC voted no on AIP1. You sounded like a frightened boy. "Frank im really freaking out man" "I had no idea the threats were so specific" You email him *********************ing your pants and then post on forums flexing your muscles. I cant remember the rest of your email but boy was it a gem. It had "surrender monkey" written all over it. If there is one thing the DFR lawsuit has done, It has exposed the truth. The total lack of integrity between your email to Frank an you public forum stance is disappointing.
Click to expand...
Totally inaccurate portrayal of the overall situation, both before and after the MV letter.

That eMail was sent right after the MV letter came out saying they would pursue other avenues, including re-evaluating integration. Of course I freaked out. Then we talked to counsel. Then we looked at M/B and the Process Agreement, I calmed down, we all discussed it, and we went back to the belief that it was greater and greater threats that would not be followed.

Ask Frank who was the lone last holdout in the vote in negotiations. That would be me. So you can take your surrender monkey bullsh*t and shove it right up your a$$.
 
Last edited:
Rich you are full of it....I read your email and read your posts. You have no leg to stand on brother. I can post the whole thing if ya want. You will look like a fool.
 
Have we not learned to cut this kind of crap out??? It's in the past guys, leave it there. Doesn't matter anymore, go have a beer..
 
Rich - don't you have a walk around to do? Seriously - get over it.
 
SWA/FO said:
Give it up Lear70 you are Finally a Southwest Pilot (what you always wanted).
Click to expand...
You're right, which is what I said at the first road show, and that coming in with longevity and even 300 numbers off the bottom was better than I would be if I'd been a new-hire, and I can't complain about how they've helped since I've been online with my father being ill and in and out of the hospital.

Congratulations to the OSW pilots; it's a real blow to our CA's and I'm pretty shocked. Interesting that one arbitrator listed in his opinion that the sub-lease of the 717 "materially changed the basis of the SLI" (first DRC hearing) and in this one another arbitrator (Javits) said it was completely within their rights and did nothing to the SLI.

That's why arbitration is so frustrating... it's... well... "arbitrary".

I need to get off this forum again. My dad's in the hospital again, I'm freaked about about Rich B, and this isn't helping my stress level. Again, to all the AAI CA's we tried to protect with the 717 CA seats, I'm sorry it worked out this way. First integration in history of two non-bankrupt carriers where not a SINGLE Captain seat was retained. Just sad.

I'm out. Good luck to everyone.
 
Hey Rich - hope your Dad gets out soon. Go take care of that stuff. FI is not good.
 
funnyman12 said:
Rich you are full of it....I read your email and read your posts. You have no leg to stand on brother. I can post the whole thing if ya want. You will look like a fool.
Click to expand...
Again, you are looking at one email. I have every email I ever sent to anyone. The rest of the email chains don't look like that. You can't take a snapshot of one moment in time and paint an entire story. Just doesn't work like that, but if it helps you feel better about yourself and your position, then good for you.

Again, I'm outta here. This stuff is NOT good for anyone's health, and a lot of us are already in pretty negative space between everything going on in our own lives plus other stuff that's happened recently. Whatever you want to post more is your own business, I'm turning the email updates off and logging out.

Ya'll fly safe out there and be good to each other. Life's too short for all this crap.
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top Bottom