AirTran DRC - judgement !

[madjack]

Ty,

Just saying, no one wants to hear or believes how great AAI was and how big a $$ hit the FAT CPs are taking... Neither are really true...we are talking SWA FO rates vs AAI CP rates, that says it all...until very recently (and coincidentally) our FOs made more than AAI CPs...also for the past 2.5 years all AAI pilots would have been enjoying SWA rates if the MEC had listened to MB72 and the MC and 850ish AAI CP seats would have been protected for 10 years...why can't the hardcore SWAPA/SWA/GK haters on here accept there culpability in this situation and move on? You all could be wearing 4 white stripes now (and I know, I would be an FO) think about that...just a little acceptance would go a long way towards unity...

 

[SWA/FO]

Sorry, but we have the data from actual AirTran pilots who have transitioned, and it is a pay cut for AirTran captains. Up to $30k, depending on longevity, whether they commute, and how willing they are to pick up extra time to make up for the loss.

Why don't you file a DRC, then you can try to gain stuff back that you already turned down. Kinda like a "do over".... You made your bed, its getting old.

Read Page 46 & 47 over again and see how a "neutral dude" sees it.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

One last time for the AirTran pilots that don't understand. You would have never got your new contract without SWA buying your little airline. So please quit trying to use your new pay as a comparison to our pay. Your Captains aren't losing 30,000 a year. If you don't like the way SWA is treating you apply somewhere else. It is time to realize we are on the same team now. All the FAT pilots I have flown with have been nothing but awesome guys and gals.

 

[canyonblue]

If you want unity, you'd best stop pissing on people and telling them it's raining. As long as you insist on telling displaced captains that they aren't taking a pay cut, when they know that they are, you're not building unity. Stop it!

As long as you insist on calling them displaced captains you're not building anything. They are F/O's, that's the way it was voted on jackhole. You're either in denial or you have Alzheimer's.

 

[Dan Roman]

As long as you insist on calling them displaced captains you're not building anything. They are F/O's, that's the way it was voted on jackhole. You're either in denial or you have Alzheimer's.

The fact that you think someone who was a Captain and ended up as an F/O after the merger isn't a displaced Captain would pretty much indicate you are in denial.
Seems to me what the SWA folks don't want to acknowledge is the simple fact that how they handled the merger has it's consequences. Yes, SWA got a lot of extra flying but a fair amount of AirTran folks had their career interrupted to make it happen. The AirTran folks don't owe any "warrior spirit" to the corporation that made that happen.

 

[madjack]

Read page 46 Dan...I'll paraphrase the obvious, ALPA gave up the CP protections of SL9, in order to gain more concessions from SWA, upon realizing they had no leverage, ALPA agreed on SL10 without those protections...

There is a lawsuit against ALPA by AAI pilots because of this, death threats against. MEC mbrs and a recall...PCL likes to call his fellow AAI pilots cowards, but because of him and a few like minded AAI pilots in ATL, the AAI mbrship's (and the CP seats) fate was sealed...

 

[HowardBorden]

The fact that you think someone who was a Captain and ended up as an F/O after the merger isn't a displaced Captain would pretty much indicate you are in denial.
Seems to me what the SWA folks don't want to acknowledge is the simple fact that how they handled the merger has it's consequences. Yes, SWA got a lot of extra flying but a fair amount of AirTran folks had their career interrupted to make it happen. The AirTran folks don't owe any "warrior spirit" to the corporation that made that happen.

Dan, you seem to be a pretty reasonable guy, but where I see you going off the rails is the fact that this whole deal got voted on by both sides. If you want to argue that there was some sort of "nefarious" activity then you need to prove it. The reason that you can't prove it is twofold, the first portion relates to the fact that you are in no way shape or form involved in any way, so you are are only Monday morning quarterbacking from the sidelines, but more importantly is the fact that there was no illegal activity on the part of SWAPA or SWA. Until everyone accepts that fact we cannot go forward.

If you are truly concerned about the "warrior spirit" at SWA, then I respectfully suggest you put in an application to join the team and come help us remedy our internal culture. Until that time you're simply an outside agitator with only an abbreviated look at what is truly going on via the the multiple internet pundits shaping and molding what you see to be the 'REAL" truth while not being involved. While that role seems to suit you, as it does many others, please understand that the vast majority of us truly involved disregard the views of those with no skin in the game.

 

[Jim]

Why would Dan want to leave the great job that is Hawaiian for a lesser job at SWA?

It's all a matter of perspective. Dan and I would never see SWA as a better job than Hawaiian. There are many Air Tran guys who will never see SWA as a better job than Air Tran. It's not always a clear case of cash is king. It seems that the SWA guys on this board will never understand that others have different perspectives or priorities.

And drop the "you can always quit" bull ********************. We all know that is not realistic in the major airline world.

 

[scoreboardII]

..................................

 

[Wesb737fo]

Fabulous..... You guys say it's all good, let's put this all behind us and move forward together, yet you continue to act like jack holes on this board. Stop trying to rationalize and sell this thing. It is what it is to each individual. Who are you trying convince? AT guys or yourselves?

 

[Britpilot]

The fact is that the pilots of AirTran have been out played since the beginning of the merger.
The reason the contract was passed was because we were told that we only be living with it for a year.
The SLI passed because of major dysfunction within the union leading to a complete distrust of union officers by the line pilots. That, the threat of non integration and the shambolic events that followed were enough for the SLI to pass easily and to recall the union officers.
The DRC complaint was inevitable and necessary in order to represent those pilots who were mislead by the supposed 717 time frame. They based their bid on the aircraft being on property until 2017 and the addition the TPA base, which is what we were told prior to the bid.
The union told it's members that they had a strong case and expected a positive outcome of the complaint. The arbitrator saw it differently and we now know the outcome of that.
Transition training has been very slow. Between January 2014 and April 2014 there are 224 slots available to bid on. That will leave around 1000 pilots to be trained for the remaining 8 months of 2014 around 125 per month. Don't know if that is at all possible.
It is now time for ALPA to go. There is no point in them being on property any longer. It is an unnecessary expense for us. We even have one union officer who insists on calling the pilots he represents, cowards. The same pilots who pay dues to finance his trip loss. That is a disgrace and we should not tolerate it.
Going forward, we pilots of AirTran have to accept what we now have and our place in the combined company.
There will be guys that are bitter and guys that have come to terms with this reality.
The majority of us are looking forward to moving on and getting on with the job.
AirTran is history, it exists on paper only and the sooner we all wear the same uniform and pay dues to the same association, the better.

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Well said Brit.

 

[Turtle21]

... ALPA gave up the CP protections ...

There is a lawsuit against ALPA ..

The people that control ALPA are lower than whale s h i t .

 

[canyonblue]

The fact that you think someone who was a Captain and ended up as an F/O after the merger isn't a displaced Captain would pretty much indicate you are in denial.

So would you consider someone who was a Captain who bid to F/O a displaced Captain? We are following the SLI voted on by both parties, which many on both side are not happy with, but still are bound to live by it. I wouldn't consider that denial, I'd consider it reality. Not everyone wants to live in the real world, and when the resident ALPA Fluffer comes on here and starts trying to oil up the masses I'll call it out. And on a side note, you're starting to worry me Dan, you're becoming more and more like a Hawiian General Lee.

 

[redflyer65]

red, as long as you're using 2001 pay rates instead of the current agreement's rates, then this isn't worth a discussion.

But hey, maybe you don't want unity. If that's the case, then keep it up. Means nothing to me, since I won't have a dog in the fight. But it certainly won't be in your best interests to keep up the divisive nonsense.

I use the 2001 rates because, what for it......THAT's WHAT YOU WERE GETTING PAID when Southwest bought you. Were you working to get higher pay? Absolutely. I get that. But for you to try and 'invent' some higher pay that wasn't there yet is BS.

And I also understand you don't give a crap about unity here because we are SWAPA. If you could come burn the place down you would..just because of your undying devotion to all things ALPA. So give the unity speech a rest, no ones buying it.


Ty,

We aren't comparing '01 payrates at both carriers. We are comparing what you got paid on the date of acquisition to what we got paid on the same date....but you know that. You have no argument on this topic.

 

[SWA/FO]

You know ALPA told AT guys that "date of hire" would be worst case scenario. Many bought into it. Some look at Southwest to blame instead of laying the blame at ALPA.

Flash forward, ALPA tells AT guys that "they have a great case" etc.... expectations are high, then the DRC arby comes out. What a let down. Of course some blame Southwest, or maybe most.

The truth is...... almost any Union is out gunned out spent when it comes to negotiating against a fortune 500 Company. Sure we have some smart union dudes and we throw our best at them, but its really an uphill battle.

 

[Muppets]

You sound like a little whining child. Grow up, nobody cares where you are. Maybe you should have transition over sooner.

Sadly, SWA screwed that up so bad that transitions were going out of seniority order. But you are so wise.....you already knew that

 

[HowardBorden]

Why would Dan want to leave the great job that is Hawaiian for a lesser job at SWA?

It's all a matter of perspective. Dan and I would never see SWA as a better job than Hawaiian. There are many Air Tran guys who will never see SWA as a better job than Air Tran. It's not always a clear case of cash is king. It seems that the SWA guys on this board will never understand that others have different perspectives or priorities.

And drop the "you can always quit" bull ********************. We all know that is not realistic in the major airline world.

The sentiment of the statement is centered on the fact that neither you nor Dan have the slightest idea about the culture at SWA or what it means to an actual employee of the airline you both seem so happy to denigrate at every opportunity. I would never attempt to pontificate about what is what at your beloved Hawaiian because I'm smart enough to realize I don't have the slightest clue about what is or is or is not happening at an airline I don't actually work for.

The outsiders looking in only have the opportunity to make judgements about the wholly unique situation facing these two pilot groups from the perspective of the endless banal musings of the usual suspects (me included) pushing their agenda through bits and pieces of the entire puzzle. Outsiders are not privy to internal union communications or internal company info. Outsiders aren't listening to daily communications from Gary Kelly or Bob Jordan. Outsiders are not getting more than a tiny fraction of the entire picture. So please forgive me when I choose to wholly disregard the opinions of those that I know to be not entirely informed on the issues at hand.

 

[SWA/FO]

Wonder how he will feel when Southwest buys Hawaiian? :crying:

 

[Dan Roman]

Wonder how he will feel when Southwest buys Hawaiian? :crying:

Nice try! I would say the chances of SWA deciding they need a relatively small International AirBus hub in HNL to expand are slim to none. But if it did happen, I would have to wonder how the reality of you getting fenced out of the widebody flying and the inter-island flying would feel. Obviously "Gary" couldn't pull his little operate separately threat(you have nothing you could replace our type of flying with) on us and since Hawaii is an island, it's small enough that the crap you guys pulled on AirTran would not work here.
I know you guys don't believe it, but I have absolutely nothing against SWA.
I've said this before, for obvious reasons I do have an interest in how mergers go down. To be honest, it's pretty unlikely for us for a lot of reasons, but I still like to keep abreast of the merger mentality in our industry. That's the whole reason I am as active on this stuff as I am. It has nothing to do with any anti SWA feelings. I actually like your airline, think you have a great operation and have the utmost respect for a pilot group that seems to enjoy flying as much as I do. I'm not ashamed to admit that it's OK to still like to fly airplanes and there is nothing wrong with liking the airline you work for.