Ahh, the ole blame game, from the grizzled ole SR-71 copilot. You tend to be a little scary yourself.
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AirTran Contract issues
- Thread starter Max Powers
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first year pay rates are important and legacy carriers in the past have been somewhat lower than the airtans, frontiers the reason is they have ALOT more to offer as far as retirement, equipment, QOL on and on and on so pilots are willing to make the sacrifice.
But lets address the flat line F/O rates that were in the TA's that is undefendable, people that voted for those TA's were Captain's that were line holders and had no integrity.......well...like you TWE Pilot
I just talked to a guy that flew with you and I am confident that the way he saw you so does all your F/O's you fly with, they just don't tell you, it would make the cockpit unpleasent.
Do yourself a favor look up integrity and start showing some you will sleep easier
But lets address the flat line F/O rates that were in the TA's that is undefendable, people that voted for those TA's were Captain's that were line holders and had no integrity.......well...like you TWE Pilot
I just talked to a guy that flew with you and I am confident that the way he saw you so does all your F/O's you fly with, they just don't tell you, it would make the cockpit unpleasent.
Do yourself a favor look up integrity and start showing some you will sleep easier
Lear70
JAFFO
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- 7,487
No reason to start calling people names.
All that will do is entrench people further into their position of voting what's right for them without regard to the rest of the list.
Frank conversation about the repercussions of that type of position is the ONLY thing that will have ANY chance of making someone actually consider a different position.
I don't think there's an airTran pilot on property who doesn't know who I am and what I've sacrificed at this point, which is why I'm trying to have this discussion tactfully, but firmly and respectfully.
In the end there may be nothing to do but to agree to disagree, but at least I've tried.
All that will do is entrench people further into their position of voting what's right for them without regard to the rest of the list.
Frank conversation about the repercussions of that type of position is the ONLY thing that will have ANY chance of making someone actually consider a different position.
I don't think there's an airTran pilot on property who doesn't know who I am and what I've sacrificed at this point, which is why I'm trying to have this discussion tactfully, but firmly and respectfully.
In the end there may be nothing to do but to agree to disagree, but at least I've tried.
PRINCE AKEEM
Sexual Chocolate
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
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- 157
So ya think the vote was a 'single-issue' thing? Pretty simple thinking.
Gentlemen,we can agree to desagree;this is democracy at his best.we should respect everyone point of view and their right to reflect their view by casting their vote,one way or the other.
Some thing about a healthy and respectful debate,is that you can participate with an open mind,listen to others ,become better educated ,revise your position or reenforce your belief.
During TA1 and 2 campaing i thought that the f/o pay was an insult.when a captain in his breifing ask me to keep him out of trouble,he value my input.so why this not be reflected on f/o rate?
Now by educated myself by reading our contract and ldebating with others on the line,i realise there is bigger concern ,which is the risk of our flying to be giving away to the lowest bidder.no matter your seniority # everyone will be affected .
Scope protection is now my #1 priority.i want to see in plain english that any flying under A/T colour will be perform by A/T pilots.
My #2 priority is merger protection.i've heard all kind of rumors in case of a merger.we need a clear policy on this matter.
Third ,i have mine mentality is just wrong.i care about myself,my family and the f/o who is not on property yet.
Let's all together make it happens.
Some thing about a healthy and respectful debate,is that you can participate with an open mind,listen to others ,become better educated ,revise your position or reenforce your belief.
During TA1 and 2 campaing i thought that the f/o pay was an insult.when a captain in his breifing ask me to keep him out of trouble,he value my input.so why this not be reflected on f/o rate?
Now by educated myself by reading our contract and ldebating with others on the line,i realise there is bigger concern ,which is the risk of our flying to be giving away to the lowest bidder.no matter your seniority # everyone will be affected .
Scope protection is now my #1 priority.i want to see in plain english that any flying under A/T colour will be perform by A/T pilots.
My #2 priority is merger protection.i've heard all kind of rumors in case of a merger.we need a clear policy on this matter.
Third ,i have mine mentality is just wrong.i care about myself,my family and the f/o who is not on property yet.
Let's all together make it happens.
Max Powers
Well-known member
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- Oct 26, 2005
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- 1,136
Well when those pay rates got signed in(or forced in as the case may be) there were no First or second or even third year pilots at those companies.
Mr. RV Defend your position that some pilots should be going way far backward in pay while you go way far forward. What do you find so wrong with people who want to make things fair for the junior and senior guy..........And if memory serves I have heard your name more than once........And I'm betting those FO you speak of that keep quiet; do it out of a sense of professionalism - to keep the CRM alive - How do I know? Because I am one of them.
That is not my position at all. I have no issue with anyone trying to better themselves or their family or the various groups in our airline. What I have a problem with is the mentality that I am now some kind of a demon simply because I voted yes on TA2. I evaluated it and voted accordingly, it was not perfect..far from it in fact. But in my opinion it was as good as we were going to get looking into the future. This entire thread has become totally convoluted and emotional and this will be my last post on this topic. Again, I state that the system worked as it should. I'm not pissed at anyone voting NO on it. Why is that people are seeking blood from those that voted yes?? I don't get it. I enjoy my job immensely and feel as though my crews are my friends and family. Apparently, its not a 2 way street where thats concerened.
Ya'all have great new year.
RV
Ya'all have great new year.
RV
CatfishVT9
Anti-Democrat
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2004
- Posts
- 466
People on 'ludes should not post......
You said you would want an open honest discussion on the TA. Still waiting to hear one or two positives you thought were in that TA besides CA pay
Max Powers
Well-known member
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Yep, you seem like a natural born leader!
Eagle757shark
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When you say "I evaluated it and voted accordingly, it was as good as we were going to get looking into the future". How do you know this was the best we were going to get in the future? The previous negotiating team DID NOT negotiate, they sat in a room and waited for management to throw them a bone. Then they brought us these tired TAs! I'm tired of guys giving this defeated attitude. What you meant to say is YOU GAVE UP and were willing to accept anything! Scope was horrible, pay rates were horrible, work rules were horrible. If our negotiating team was willing to negotiate and not be intimidated by the other side, perhaps a better TA could have resulted. We had NO leadership and a negotiating team way out of their league! You voted and I'm thankful, but when you say you voted yes because this was the best we could get right now......BULL! Especially when the work rules were less than what we have in our current collective bargaining agreement. You got greedy and looked at those pay rates and that is all you saw! At least be honest about that! Because outside those payrates for a Captain with your longevity, there was nothing else in those TAs worth voting for! Section 1, Section 4, and Section 5 were horrible in those TAs and could not even compare to our current CBA. So save your preaching and your high horse about how noble you are! This TA was a pure sellout to the pilots that work here period!
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I respect what you are saying. However, what do you think a 7 year CA at CAL will be making in 2010? Chances are, that by that time CAL may have a new and much improved CBA.
Just a few more questions. What would you have made in 2007 at day of signing? What would your year 2 through year 6 captains have made at signing date, again, in 2007? I believe CAL's year 2-6 captains make anywhere from 131 to about 140 per hour. Let's keep in mind that we are making comparisons to a concessionary contract and not one negotiated while the company is making profits! I'm not certain about the soft pay and work rules involved in your proposed contract. But if memory serves me well, I do believe that was a big point of contention among your group.
Secondly, what about pay for the guy you depend on the most, and spend a great deal of your time next to, your FO? Yes, perhaps your proposed pay scales might have been higher than the CAL SNB FO rates. But, lets keep in mind that 73 guys at CAL also fly the 800s and the 900s which pay higher, thus, making W2s better at the end of the year. Again, comparisons to a concessionary contract.
But if you want to look further, lets look at Frontier and Alaska. Your proposed FO rates didn't form parity with those payscales either. Again, these companies are also operating under concessionary contracts! Not only that, but they haven't performed as well finacially, as AAI as of late. I will respectfully submit, that your group should be striving more to at least come close to SWA and not these companies operating under concessions.
Please know that my observations and opinions are just that. I am in no way, shape, or form attacking you or your pilot group. I'm merely expressing my opinions on a subject that I think in the end could impact many of us. A tide raises all boats.
Minime... You have a great point. I have been saying all along that AAI should at least be at F9 and ALA FO pay scales. Guys get to caught up in the hourly rates and forget the rest. I believe F9 makes time and a quarter over 80 hours as well (or something similar to JB). Almost all pilots right now are working under concesionary contracts, its up to us here at AAI to step up and set the bar a little higher. The Capt pay rates on the TA2 were a step in the right direction, but the FO rates were not.
Two.... The problem is that you say you support our union, and thats great. However, like I said before, you do not support the pilot group. If you did, you would have voted this TA down. I have no idea who you are, nore do I care, but most of the guys who did vote for the TA are the senior guys that would really not be affected by this contract. The senior guys don't have to worry about reserve, you don't worry about merger protection as much, you don't worry about the low FO hourly wage and the step backwards in QOL that the junior guys were going to get. The reason I'm telling you this is so hopefully when the next TA comes around, you will see the bigger picture and not throw the FO's under the bus. Please, support your PILOT GROUP and the union, remember the little guys, and don't just think about yourself.
Two.... The problem is that you say you support our union, and thats great. However, like I said before, you do not support the pilot group. If you did, you would have voted this TA down. I have no idea who you are, nore do I care, but most of the guys who did vote for the TA are the senior guys that would really not be affected by this contract. The senior guys don't have to worry about reserve, you don't worry about merger protection as much, you don't worry about the low FO hourly wage and the step backwards in QOL that the junior guys were going to get. The reason I'm telling you this is so hopefully when the next TA comes around, you will see the bigger picture and not throw the FO's under the bus. Please, support your PILOT GROUP and the union, remember the little guys, and don't just think about yourself.
...Happy New Year, Co! Coke is hiring across town, they pay copilots pretty well. I love this country!
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Lear70
JAFFO
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2003
- Posts
- 7,487
Absolutely.
Fix the problem rather than run from it...
Happy New Year to everyone, hope it brings all of us a great contract!
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