Airtran and their "500 PIC part 121" requirement?

[Airpiraterob]

Might want to change that Avatar too. It's now the international symbol for choke.

nah thats the cardinals logo, the yanks actually won a game or two against em.

 

[GogglesPisano]

No offense to you 121 guys but I,ve have met a few dumb a$$es that have become 121 captains only because of seniority not for brains, common sense the fact they are the dumbest sons of biatchs ever to bless the cockpit. I don,t agree with this requirement but hey I,m just another disgruntled 135 pilot. There are alot of 135/corporate pilots out there with a ton of experience most 121 guys would never get and will never have . I say fair chance to all with the right experience...

There are plenty of retards who have managed their way into corporate flight departments because they happen to be someone's nephew. In the 121 environment, you still have to pass a rigid checkride in order to be PIC -- notwithstanding seniority.

I see their reasoning: 121 experience means you generally fly more take-offs and landings into busier airports. You have experience dealing with ATC delays, CRM, FA's, unions, schedulers, dispatchers, 121 regs, Feds in the jumpseat ... It is a more similar environment to what Air Tran pilots work in than corporate.

(Since I have 2500 hours 121 PIC Jet, I think it's an outstanding requirement)

 

[ultrarunner]

Originally Posted by ultrarunner

"...That requirement weeds out a whole bunch of 'protected class' pilots. Good way to keep things pretty male and pretty white on the flight deck..."


Are you serious? if so, you're a sad, sad man.


You're darn right I am serious. HOWEVER, I do NOT in ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER agree with this policy. I was just simply stating that fact this this policy will in fact keep the flight deck very white and very male.

Do you disagree? Or do you feel that this policy will ENHANCE a diverse flight deck.

Don't freaking jump on me dude.

Are you serious? if so, you're a sad, sad man.

 

[TWA Dude]

twadude........wow I,m surprised . You sound more than qualified

Thanks, that gave me a chuckle. Of course I'm qualified as are most of us but that doesn't matter. The word "qualified" is very a very debatable quality. Dorks get hired everywhere because they interview well and greats guys don't because they blow the interview. It's all just a game: impress the interviewers and get the job. I wish I could say that if I were the interviewer I'd do a better job but the fact is I'm sure it's extrememly difficult. (Not that I forgive them for making bonehead decisions!)

And BTW, having several thousand hours more than the next guy doesn't doesn't translate to being more qualified. Just ask any FO his/her opinion of some of the captains s/he flies with.

 

[DonVerita]

Come on over to jetblue!

Are you serious?

The last time I checked, Jet Blue wanted 1000 PIC 121 turbine, which is 500 more than what AirTran asks for.

Not that it makes a difference. What's 500 among friends? Unfortunately it excludes a lot of qualified people. Why not make it 2000? Will it change anything? NO. Either you're a good pilot or you're not. Going from 500 PIC to 1000 PIC doesn't amount to anything except extra writer's cramp in your logbook.

 

[jetdawg]

I may not agree with the 500 hours but like someone mentioned it is suppply and demand. Back when I was looking for a cummuter job with 2900 hours 200 turbine and 1500 multi American Eagle sent me back a letter saying I did not meet competive qualifications. This with just a look at my resume.


What about the majors saying he or She flew with the military they must be better than cizilian pilots.

 

[Bill Nelson]

The requirement is NOT hard and fast. I have a friend who interviewed about 6 weeks ago and doesn't have any 121 time and is civilian only background.

(He has a buddy who is in the training department so maybe that was the deciding qualification)

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

Ok, here's the reason for AirTran 500 121PIC requirement:



AirTran training and especially checking is very intense...that is doubled when you go through upgrade. Reason: in early days of VJ quite a few DC9's were banged up by not very sharp people. (trying to be nice here)



Due to that (new) rigid training and checking AirTran failure rate for new hires and upgrades started to soar. So a little research was done to see who was passing and who was failing training. And among other things, one common denominator among most of those who had problem in training was---no 121 PIC time. Now that’s one variable AirTran figured they could control.



As AirTran is a low cost carrier, everything is directly transferred into expense or profit. This requirement thought to get read of that additional expense. Just numbers, no personal feeling involved.



Now, I personally disagree with this policy, simply because if it was implemented a year early I would still be an FO at a regional. I also have tons of friends who do not meet the new requirements, and as much as I've tried, there is nothing I can do for them.

 

[doer42]

Are you serious?

The last time I checked, Jet Blue wanted 1000 PIC 121 turbine, which is 500 more than what AirTran asks for.

I don't see on JB's website that they require 1000 PIC 121 turbine...from the website, the requirements are:

• 1500 hours total time in airplanes (excluded: Helicopter, Simulator, Flight Engineer time)
• 1000 hours turbine in airplanes
• 1000 hours Pilot in Command Time*
• 1000 hours in airplanes at or above 20,000 pounds (maximum takeoff weight)

* PIC logged IAW FAR part 1, *Jetblue will only consider PIC time when the Pilot has signed for the aircraft.

And no, I don't work for JB.

 

[Benhuntn]

Too Bad

I would say, in response to your question, " what should non 121 pilots do". Fly for a commuter and get 500 and then join AirTran. Boy now that was easy. Rather than argue the merits of their policy just meet their needs and the issue is gone. If you whine about 500 PIC now you will be whining about a ton of things you don't like later. OOPs I need to get off my soap box the wife wants it to reach a high shelf.

 

[kilroy]

The fact is alot of part-135 operators fly more hours a year and to many more different airports than 121 carriers. On top of that we do our own flight planning,transportation arrangements, over flight permits,catering not to mention we are baggage handlers. We get called out in the middle of the night to go some where we have never heard of in the worst weather. All within 1 hour or 2 of the call.... On top of that we have part-135 regs,part-91 regs to deal with.. We also have atc delays,busy airports. Annual 293 a/b,299 and 6 month 297 check rides.......... So tell m again how a 121 guy has more experience than a 135 guy. OH !!! now I remember why I hate part-135..

 

[LJDRVR]

I know how fustrated you 135/91 guys are. I have two friends at AT and neither of them could do a thing to help me. There are two issues in play here.

• The 500 PIC policy
• 121 vs 135

As to the policy, everyone has their own personal opinions. Mine is that Klaus likes airline pilots. (We all most closely identify with the choices we have made ouselves) as to the military part, the veterans in your workforce are a more closely-knit group than ex charter or corporate, and simply would not allow such a policy without the "or military equavelant" phrasing.

As to the 121 vs 135 part, I'm one of those folks who have done both. (With years of international command experience on the charter side.) Here's my stupid opinion. It's their company and they can hire who they like. Are they depriving themselves of many talented aviators? You bet. Is whining about it on flightinfo going to help? No.

To my peers who believe that being a 121 pilot makes them a better aviator: Get real. Just because you went down this path doesn't mean it's the best choice. There are some folks in Learjets, Gulfstreams, Hawkers and Cessna's doing some flying that would amaze you.

To those of you plying your trade in the 135 arena: 121 is a totally different animal. Six months ago I thought the differences would be small. They are enourmous. Not harder, not easier, different. If you really want that job at the majors, you've got do everything you can to imrove your qualifications, even if it means taking a huge paycut. I did, and I'm having the time of my life.

 

[Swerpipe]

and HR said...

GogglesPisano said,

"There are plenty of retards who have managed their way into corporate flight departments because they happen to be someone's nephew. In the 121 environment, you still have to pass a rigid checkride in order to be PIC -- notwithstanding seniority.

I see their reasoning: 121 experience means you generally fly more take-offs and landings into busier airports. You have experience dealing with ATC delays, CRM, FA's, unions, schedulers, dispatchers, 121 regs, Feds in the jumpseat ... It is a more similar environment to what Air Tran pilots work in than corporate.
(Since I have 2500 hours 121 PIC Jet, I think it's an outstanding requirement)"

Goggles you are so full of it, you haven't got a clue...

-No relatives have gotten into Part 121 operations because Daddy works there right?

-We don't go to busy airports or 4500 ft runways or 60 foot wide runways, or unfamiliar airports and environments all the time right? Going only to busy airports all the time is really tough right? Those 10000 ft runways are sure a challenge...Following that 10-9 chart chart is really difficult right?

-We never have ATC delays right, "Attention all 135 aircraft, you are all cleared for takeoff, we'll just have the airlines wait"

-Yeah we don't have CRM right? I have jumpseated on AA and UPS and see no difference between our procedures and your elite 121 procedures

-No dispatchers? Oh yeah I am the dispatcher

-No FAs Oh yeah I am the FA

-No janitor, oh yeah I am the janitor. Add on ramp agent, customer service rep, catering service and complaint hotline, cook, etc...
-No 121 regs? Oh yeah we have 135 that are sooooo different but I'm sure I couldn't learn 121, that would take a real genius

-Feds in the jumpseat? Oh yeah we never have to deal with over-zealous FAA friendly FEDS coming over to "help" right?

Goggles you have no clue of what you are talking about. To think that an airline like Airtran can not train a Captain with over 2000 hour PIC in jet and turboprops is really incredible. How can Southwest do it? In the end it just shows in the arrogance of your workforce, just listen to how pompous and ignorant you sound Mr. Goggles.
Airtran, however, has every right to do it. In the end, your pilot force will be the loosers. Your are skipping over a lot of great customer service leaders that happen to be great pilots. Personally, I would not like to work for a company that is so unwise and shortsighted.
By the way Ty, I think it was YOU! who screwed up your training and killed it for the rest of us. Thank you! (just kidding Ty) But it is true that from now on Airtran will be missing gems such as yourself. LOL

I know Stephanie (who is a sweatheart) over at Airtran HR and she told me that it was a few folks that did poorly in training supposedly with Part 135/91 background.

 

[GogglesPisano]

GogglesPisano said,

"There are plenty of retards who have managed their way into corporate flight departments because they happen to be someone's nephew. In the 121 environment, you still have to pass a rigid checkride in order to be PIC -- notwithstanding seniority.

I see their reasoning: 121 experience means you generally fly more take-offs and landings into busier airports. You have experience dealing with ATC delays, CRM, FA's, unions, schedulers, dispatchers, 121 regs, Feds in the jumpseat ... It is a more similar environment to what Air Tran pilots work in than corporate.
(Since I have 2500 hours 121 PIC Jet, I think it's an outstanding requirement)"

Goggles you are so full of it, you haven't got a clue...

-No relatives have gotten into Part 121 operations because Daddy works there right?

-We don't go to busy airports or 4500 ft runways or 60 foot wide runways, or unfamiliar airports and environments all the time right? Going only to busy airports all the time is really tough right? Those 10000 ft runways are sure a challenge...Following that 10-9 chart chart is really difficult right?

-We never have ATC delays right, "Attention all 135 aircraft, you are all cleared for takeoff, we'll just have the airlines wait"

-Yeah we don't have CRM right? I have jumpseated on AA and UPS and see no difference between our procedures and your elite 121 procedures

-No dispatchers? Oh yeah I am the dispatcher

-No FAs Oh yeah I am the FA

-No janitor, oh yeah I am the janitor. Add on ramp agent, customer service rep, catering service and complaint hotline, cook, etc...
-No 121 regs? Oh yeah we have 135 that are sooooo different but I'm sure I couldn't learn 121, that would take a real genius

-Feds in the jumpseat? Oh yeah we never have to deal with over-zealous FAA friendly FEDS coming over to "help" right?

Goggles you have no clue of what you are talking about. To think that an airline like Airtran can not train a Captain with over 2000 hour PIC in jet and turboprops is really incredible. How can Southwest do it? In the end it just shows in the arrogance of your workforce, just listen to how pompous and ignorant you sound Mr. Goggles.
Airtran, however, has every right to do it. In the end, your pilot force will be the loosers. Your are skipping over a lot of great customer service leaders that happen to be great pilots. Personally, I would not like to work for a company that is so unwise and shortsighted.
By the way Ty, I think it was YOU! who screwed up your training and killed it for the rest of us. Thank you! (just kidding Ty) But it is true that from now on Airtran will be missing gems such as yourself. LOL

I know Stephanie (who is a sweatheart) over at Airtran HR and she told me that it was a few folks that did poorly in training supposedly with Part 135/91 background.

Sounds like I hit a raw nerve. Sorry. My point was that Air Tran is a Part 121 airline, and has probably found that pilots with 121 experience are better candidates. Yelling at me on a weboard isn't going to change a thing.

I know 135 pilots work hard -- I've been there.

PS: I don't work for Air Tran.

 

[Swerpipe]

Not really

Goggles,

It probably sounds a lot worse in writing than the way I feel. In any case nothing we can do so who cares. I don't like it when pilots get discriminated for their backgrounds without a fair shot. It's not just the airlines, corporate and charter companies do it as well. Sorry if I sounded too personal, just to spice it up a bit.
So long...

 

[Bill Nelson]

The requirement is NOT hard and fast. I have a friend who interviewed about 6 weeks ago and doesn't have any 121 time and is civilian only background.

(He has a buddy who is in the training department so maybe that was the deciding qualification)

AGAIN I SAY (yes, I'm yelling to get your attention) You don't have to have the 500 121 time to get an interview. I can testify based on first hand knowledge.

Quit complaining about it anyway, your opinion isn't going to change their policy.

 

[DonVerita]

I don't see on JB's website that they require 1000 PIC 121 turbine...from the website, the requirements are:

• 1000 hours turbine in airplanes
• 1000 hours Pilot in Command Time*
* PIC logged IAW FAR part 1, *Jetblue will only consider PIC time when the Pilot has signed for the aircraft.

And no, I don't work for JB.

What does this mean to you? A flight instructor signs for a C172 before a training flight with his student. Think that applies here? Jet Blue (and AirTran) is referring to signing for a Part 121 aircraft carrying passengers or freight in which you are in charge of an entire crew and its payload. Not a 172, not a King Air 90, not a Part 135 Navajo with 5 passengers. Airline operations. Period.

Granted...the JB website could be a bit more clear on the issue, but in the real world it is Part 121 PIC Turbine that large jet airlines are looking for.

 

[Swerpipe]

Part 1 definition

Hey Don,

I have talked to the JBlue recruiter and they consider Part 1 turbine PIC from a 135/91 background. Infact, they have many guys with corporate/charter backgrounds. Signing for the aircraft or Part 1 definition refers to being assigned as the PIC. In other words, if you are typed and flying on the left you may/may not be the "PIC". There is only an assigned PIC on any flight, the person ultimately responsible and he can seat on the left or right it doesn't matter.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Ok, here's the reason for AirTran 500 121PIC requirement:

AirTran training and especially checking is very intense...that is doubled when you go through upgrade.

Now that's funny!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I heard that JetBlue intentionally want a variety of experience in the cockpit, and they try to get 1/3 mil, 1/3 121 and 1/3 91/135.

Cliff
YIP