Airtran and their "500 PIC part 121" requirement?

[kilroy]

The fact is alot of part-135 operators fly more hours a year and to many more different airports than 121 carriers. On top of that we do our own flight planning,transportation arrangements, over flight permits,catering not to mention we are baggage handlers. We get called out in the middle of the night to go some where we have never heard of in the worst weather. All within 1 hour or 2 of the call.... On top of that we have part-135 regs,part-91 regs to deal with.. We also have atc delays,busy airports. Annual 293 a/b,299 and 6 month 297 check rides.......... So tell m again how a 121 guy has more experience than a 135 guy. OH !!! now I remember why I hate part-135..

 

[LJDRVR]

I know how fustrated you 135/91 guys are. I have two friends at AT and neither of them could do a thing to help me. There are two issues in play here.

• The 500 PIC policy
• 121 vs 135

As to the policy, everyone has their own personal opinions. Mine is that Klaus likes airline pilots. (We all most closely identify with the choices we have made ouselves) as to the military part, the veterans in your workforce are a more closely-knit group than ex charter or corporate, and simply would not allow such a policy without the "or military equavelant" phrasing.

As to the 121 vs 135 part, I'm one of those folks who have done both. (With years of international command experience on the charter side.) Here's my stupid opinion. It's their company and they can hire who they like. Are they depriving themselves of many talented aviators? You bet. Is whining about it on flightinfo going to help? No.

To my peers who believe that being a 121 pilot makes them a better aviator: Get real. Just because you went down this path doesn't mean it's the best choice. There are some folks in Learjets, Gulfstreams, Hawkers and Cessna's doing some flying that would amaze you.

To those of you plying your trade in the 135 arena: 121 is a totally different animal. Six months ago I thought the differences would be small. They are enourmous. Not harder, not easier, different. If you really want that job at the majors, you've got do everything you can to imrove your qualifications, even if it means taking a huge paycut. I did, and I'm having the time of my life.

 

[Swerpipe]

and HR said...

GogglesPisano said,

"There are plenty of retards who have managed their way into corporate flight departments because they happen to be someone's nephew. In the 121 environment, you still have to pass a rigid checkride in order to be PIC -- notwithstanding seniority.

I see their reasoning: 121 experience means you generally fly more take-offs and landings into busier airports. You have experience dealing with ATC delays, CRM, FA's, unions, schedulers, dispatchers, 121 regs, Feds in the jumpseat ... It is a more similar environment to what Air Tran pilots work in than corporate.
(Since I have 2500 hours 121 PIC Jet, I think it's an outstanding requirement)"

Goggles you are so full of it, you haven't got a clue...

-No relatives have gotten into Part 121 operations because Daddy works there right?

-We don't go to busy airports or 4500 ft runways or 60 foot wide runways, or unfamiliar airports and environments all the time right? Going only to busy airports all the time is really tough right? Those 10000 ft runways are sure a challenge...Following that 10-9 chart chart is really difficult right?

-We never have ATC delays right, "Attention all 135 aircraft, you are all cleared for takeoff, we'll just have the airlines wait"

-Yeah we don't have CRM right? I have jumpseated on AA and UPS and see no difference between our procedures and your elite 121 procedures

-No dispatchers? Oh yeah I am the dispatcher

-No FAs Oh yeah I am the FA

-No janitor, oh yeah I am the janitor. Add on ramp agent, customer service rep, catering service and complaint hotline, cook, etc...
-No 121 regs? Oh yeah we have 135 that are sooooo different but I'm sure I couldn't learn 121, that would take a real genius

-Feds in the jumpseat? Oh yeah we never have to deal with over-zealous FAA friendly FEDS coming over to "help" right?

Goggles you have no clue of what you are talking about. To think that an airline like Airtran can not train a Captain with over 2000 hour PIC in jet and turboprops is really incredible. How can Southwest do it? In the end it just shows in the arrogance of your workforce, just listen to how pompous and ignorant you sound Mr. Goggles.
Airtran, however, has every right to do it. In the end, your pilot force will be the loosers. Your are skipping over a lot of great customer service leaders that happen to be great pilots. Personally, I would not like to work for a company that is so unwise and shortsighted.
By the way Ty, I think it was YOU! who screwed up your training and killed it for the rest of us. Thank you! (just kidding Ty) But it is true that from now on Airtran will be missing gems such as yourself. LOL

I know Stephanie (who is a sweatheart) over at Airtran HR and she told me that it was a few folks that did poorly in training supposedly with Part 135/91 background.

 

[GogglesPisano]

GogglesPisano said,

"There are plenty of retards who have managed their way into corporate flight departments because they happen to be someone's nephew. In the 121 environment, you still have to pass a rigid checkride in order to be PIC -- notwithstanding seniority.

I see their reasoning: 121 experience means you generally fly more take-offs and landings into busier airports. You have experience dealing with ATC delays, CRM, FA's, unions, schedulers, dispatchers, 121 regs, Feds in the jumpseat ... It is a more similar environment to what Air Tran pilots work in than corporate.
(Since I have 2500 hours 121 PIC Jet, I think it's an outstanding requirement)"

Goggles you are so full of it, you haven't got a clue...

-No relatives have gotten into Part 121 operations because Daddy works there right?

-We don't go to busy airports or 4500 ft runways or 60 foot wide runways, or unfamiliar airports and environments all the time right? Going only to busy airports all the time is really tough right? Those 10000 ft runways are sure a challenge...Following that 10-9 chart chart is really difficult right?

-We never have ATC delays right, "Attention all 135 aircraft, you are all cleared for takeoff, we'll just have the airlines wait"

-Yeah we don't have CRM right? I have jumpseated on AA and UPS and see no difference between our procedures and your elite 121 procedures

-No dispatchers? Oh yeah I am the dispatcher

-No FAs Oh yeah I am the FA

-No janitor, oh yeah I am the janitor. Add on ramp agent, customer service rep, catering service and complaint hotline, cook, etc...
-No 121 regs? Oh yeah we have 135 that are sooooo different but I'm sure I couldn't learn 121, that would take a real genius

-Feds in the jumpseat? Oh yeah we never have to deal with over-zealous FAA friendly FEDS coming over to "help" right?

Goggles you have no clue of what you are talking about. To think that an airline like Airtran can not train a Captain with over 2000 hour PIC in jet and turboprops is really incredible. How can Southwest do it? In the end it just shows in the arrogance of your workforce, just listen to how pompous and ignorant you sound Mr. Goggles.
Airtran, however, has every right to do it. In the end, your pilot force will be the loosers. Your are skipping over a lot of great customer service leaders that happen to be great pilots. Personally, I would not like to work for a company that is so unwise and shortsighted.
By the way Ty, I think it was YOU! who screwed up your training and killed it for the rest of us. Thank you! (just kidding Ty) But it is true that from now on Airtran will be missing gems such as yourself. LOL

I know Stephanie (who is a sweatheart) over at Airtran HR and she told me that it was a few folks that did poorly in training supposedly with Part 135/91 background.

Sounds like I hit a raw nerve. Sorry. My point was that Air Tran is a Part 121 airline, and has probably found that pilots with 121 experience are better candidates. Yelling at me on a weboard isn't going to change a thing.

I know 135 pilots work hard -- I've been there.

PS: I don't work for Air Tran.

 

[Swerpipe]

Not really

Goggles,

It probably sounds a lot worse in writing than the way I feel. In any case nothing we can do so who cares. I don't like it when pilots get discriminated for their backgrounds without a fair shot. It's not just the airlines, corporate and charter companies do it as well. Sorry if I sounded too personal, just to spice it up a bit.
So long...

 

[Bill Nelson]

The requirement is NOT hard and fast. I have a friend who interviewed about 6 weeks ago and doesn't have any 121 time and is civilian only background.

(He has a buddy who is in the training department so maybe that was the deciding qualification)

AGAIN I SAY (yes, I'm yelling to get your attention) You don't have to have the 500 121 time to get an interview. I can testify based on first hand knowledge.

Quit complaining about it anyway, your opinion isn't going to change their policy.

 

[DonVerita]

I don't see on JB's website that they require 1000 PIC 121 turbine...from the website, the requirements are:

• 1000 hours turbine in airplanes
• 1000 hours Pilot in Command Time*
* PIC logged IAW FAR part 1, *Jetblue will only consider PIC time when the Pilot has signed for the aircraft.

And no, I don't work for JB.

What does this mean to you? A flight instructor signs for a C172 before a training flight with his student. Think that applies here? Jet Blue (and AirTran) is referring to signing for a Part 121 aircraft carrying passengers or freight in which you are in charge of an entire crew and its payload. Not a 172, not a King Air 90, not a Part 135 Navajo with 5 passengers. Airline operations. Period.

Granted...the JB website could be a bit more clear on the issue, but in the real world it is Part 121 PIC Turbine that large jet airlines are looking for.

 

[Swerpipe]

Part 1 definition

Hey Don,

I have talked to the JBlue recruiter and they consider Part 1 turbine PIC from a 135/91 background. Infact, they have many guys with corporate/charter backgrounds. Signing for the aircraft or Part 1 definition refers to being assigned as the PIC. In other words, if you are typed and flying on the left you may/may not be the "PIC". There is only an assigned PIC on any flight, the person ultimately responsible and he can seat on the left or right it doesn't matter.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Ok, here's the reason for AirTran 500 121PIC requirement:

AirTran training and especially checking is very intense...that is doubled when you go through upgrade.

Now that's funny!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I heard that JetBlue intentionally want a variety of experience in the cockpit, and they try to get 1/3 mil, 1/3 121 and 1/3 91/135.

Cliff
YIP

 

[airbaker]

I heard that JetBlue intentionally want a variety of experience in the cockpit, and they try to get 1/3 mil, 1/3 121 and 1/3 91/135.

I'd say that's about right, although I think it might be a little more heavy on the military side (especially navy!)

 

[-9Capt]

Guppie,

You may find that funny, but it's a true statement!

 

[BigFlyr]

I guess to be PIC for someone doing Air Tran subservice without the 500 turbine PIC is okay, but it is not okay to be right seat for actual Air Tran.[/QUOTE]


Some of us who flew AirTran subservice at Miami Air also fit that discription!

 

[cornbread]

Diversity

Do you disagree? Or do you feel that this policy will ENHANCE a diverse flight deck?

I guess we can all look for reasons that SWA would require a type.
I view it is a way to seek out pilots:
-who will not fail a upgrade check in the 737 when the time comes
-who are willing to risk something to get the job
-with an entrepreneurial spirit
-who don't have a sense of entitlement

It was my understanding that they are screening for a certain mindset with the type requirement. I could be wrong, however.

The fact that you see it as a racism/sexism thing is disappointing. I am curious why the cockpit (lest we use that term) should be used as a diversity platform. Shouldn't it be used as a safety platform and nothing else?

Believe it or not they actually have blacks and women working there (ooh, aahhhh, gasp),...as pilots.

Don't freaking jump on me dude.

lighten up francis

 

[-9Capt]

I guess to be PIC for someone doing Air Tran subservice without the 500 turbine PIC is okay, but it is not okay to be right seat for actual Air Tran.

Some of us who flew AirTran subservice at Miami Air also fit that discription![/QUOTE]

That may be true but AirTran isn't paying for your training. AirTran believes they have better success hiring people with 500hr PIC 121, and it's AirTrans call, get over it.

 

[FracCapt]

AirTran training and especially checking is very intense...that is doubled when you go through upgrade. Reason: in early days of VJ quite a few DC9's were banged up by not very sharp people. (trying to be nice here)

Now, I personally disagree with this policy, simply because if it was implemented a year early I would still be an FO at a regional. I also have tons of friends who do not meet the new requirements, and as much as I've tried, there is nothing I can do for them.

So...what you're saying is...that you are one of those "not very sharp people" that was allowed in before they slammed the gate? That's the way it seems to me. BTW, I find it hard to believe that ANY training that takes as long as most 121 carriers is difficult in the least for a halfway competent pilot.

 

[thruthemurk]

Granted...the JB website could be a bit more clear on the issue, but in the real world it is Part 121 PIC Turbine that large jet airlines are looking for.

Don,

Your opinion above does not jive with the facts. Take the minimums listed at face value. I personally know of at least 3 guys hired at Jetblue in the last 8 months with no airline or military background. The minimum requirements are the requirements listed on the Jetblue website. Notice the turbine time does not specify 121, and is separate from the PIC requirement. You may be in a more competitive bracket without military or airline background, but you are still hirable if you meet the minimums.

Murk

 

[michael707767]

I guess we can all look for reasons that SWA would require a type.
I view it is a way to seek out pilots:
-who will not fail a upgrade check in the 737 when the time comes

I would submit to you that having a quickie 737 type rating does not ensure success when you upgrade.

 

[-9Capt]

I find it hard to believe that ANY training that takes as long as most 121 carriers is difficult in the least for a halfway competent pilot.

Tell that to the prior Midway, Vanguard and CCAir pilots who have busted a ride at AirTran. Not to pick on those guys in particular, but the training here is intense, as anyone who had gone through. The DC-9 CAPT pass rate was less then 50% for a while.

The success rate has gone way up as of a few months ago, after a training manager left for Virgin USA.

 

[Pickle]

-9 Capt said: "but the training here is intense, as anyone who had gone through. The DC-9 CAPT pass rate was less then 50% for a while.

The success rate has gone way up as of a few months ago, after a training manager left for Virgin USA."


I should say, that speaks more to the training department than the new hires or people upgrading.

While jumpseating to ATL in June the AAI capt who was kind enough to give me the ride and I were discussing training. He told me that Air Tran still had a 40% or so bust rate. But he put the "blame", as it were, on the instructors, not the pilots. Said there were some instructors from a certain (now defunct) airline that held to some very old school beliefs.

 

[Rook]

The same argument could be made for DAL and FedEx requiring a college
degree. If you don't have the requirements go out and get them. If you can't then don't apply. Does it seem fair? Well that's all up for your own personal interpretation.

Rook

 

[jetdawg]

The upgrade on the DC-9 was very intense that I totally agree and thankfully I was part of it. Our class there were 12 and 10 made it and those 2 upgraded on the 717 one year later. And know when I came I did not have 500 hours turbine at least in a jet PIC. The bust rate on the DC-9 was very high at least 50%.

Yes the DC-9 had the old school of thought and allot of tribal knowledge from yes everyone knows what airline, but when you got typed you felt pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good(for one thing it was over).

The upgrades now the pass rate is very high I would say from talking to instructors and new captains the rate is in the 80's to 90's. It in my opoin does not have to do with pic time, but the whole program. Instructors, trng. aids and the pilots.
QUOTE=Pickle]-9 Capt said: "but the training here is intense, as anyone who had gone through. The DC-9 CAPT pass rate was less then 50% for a while.


The success rate has gone way up as of a few months ago, after a training manager left for Virgin USA."


I should say, that speaks more to the training department than the new hires or people upgrading.

While jumpseating to ATL in June the AAI capt who was kind enough to give me the ride and I were discussing training. He told me that Air Tran still had a 40% or so bust rate. But he put the "blame", as it were, on the instructors, not the pilots. Said there were some instructors from a certain (now defunct) airline that held to some very old school beliefs.[/QUOTE]

 

[iaflyer]

-No dispatchers? Oh yeah I am the dispatcher

-No FAs Oh yeah I am the FA

-No janitor, oh yeah I am the janitor. Add on ramp agent, customer service rep, catering service and complaint hotline, cook, etc...

-No 121 regs? Oh yeah we have 135 that are sooooo different but I'm sure I couldn't learn 121, that would take a real genius

I think one of the things that Airtran is looking for with their 121 requirement is people who have experience working with dispatchers, FAs, ramp agents, customer service, catering and all the other jobs.

Yes, you do do those jobs and I know that in 135 it is a difficult world. Part 121 is about working with others to get the job done. In 135 if you want to add more fuel, you do. (generally) In 121, you need usually need dispatcher approval and sometimes they don't want to give it. How will you work that out? What if the 2nd FA is whining and complaining because he feels the 3rd FA "disrespected" him? How will you work that out?

I think the 121 requirement is so that you have had a chance to experience all these types of issues somewhere else. Airtran for whatever reason has decided they want to have the requirement - it's no different than any of the other requirements that exist these days. I don't have the 500 hours of 121 time - I wish I did but it's not the end of the world.

One thing I've realized in aviation is that those who complain about experience not being useful, don't have any.

iaflye

 

[sleepy]

Maybe they are using the 500 hours Part 121 requirement as a back-door way to keep women and minority pilots out of Airtran. Given the low numbers of both in this industry, the 500 hours of Part 121 PIC could make it even more difficult for women and minorities to apply. I fly on Airtran 3 or 4 times a month, and I have never seen either in the cockpit.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

What about the CEO's daughter!

 

[Gorditas]

Maybe they are using the 500 hours Part 121 requirement as a back-door way to keep women and minority pilots out of Airtran. Given the low numbers of both in this industry, the 500 hours of Part 121 PIC could make it even more difficult for women and minorities to apply. I fly on Airtran 3 or 4 times a month, and I have never seen either in the cockpit.

Maybe they are using these requirements as a true equalizer for hiring. I get sick and tired of people beating the minority drum in any capacity, but especially in aviation. When you show up for an interview they shouldn't know if you are black or white, male or female. Your EXPERIENCE should matter, not the color of your skin or the fact that you are a female! Back when the majors were hiring, how many people did I get see passed up for someone with less than half of their experience for someone that fit into a nice little "category." (Note, I was still an FO, I am not talking about myself) Give me a break, earn something for yourself! What ever happened to being "judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin?" I really don't understand for one second how saying that they have specific TIME requirements can have any bearing on color or gender. That is unless of course you think that gender or color supersede real experience. Do not misunderstand me, I fly on a regular basis with minority and female pilots alike and enjoy it. The people I have flown with are great individuals and I hope that they have long and successful careers. I am in no way shape or form insinuating as some that pilots should all be white and male, which would get pretty boring. Some of my best crewmembers have been of the opposite sex or another race. However, statistically there will always be few minority and female pilots. For example, the Black population in the USA is around 10% of the total population. What percentage of the ENTIRE US population are certificated pilots? And from that number, what percentage are qualified to be airline pilots? That has to be an extremely small number. And to place artificial requirements on hiring, “10% of new hires have to be black” or something of the like is unrealistic not to mention unfair. The same goes for women because of how many women chose to be in aviation. There are some careers that more men than women will be drawn to, and vice versa. When was the last time that you heard a public outcry that there are not enough male nurses, or that that there should be more female auto mechanics? Or what if we applied “statistical equality” to college or professional sports instead of who is QUALIFIED to play. Or how often to you see protests at “Historically Black Colleges” because of the lack of diversity there? Can you imagine how soon Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton would show up at any school that had in its literature “Historically White College?” It is funny how some people define “diversity.” Some how all white or all male is “bigoted, racist, ect..” but all black, female, etc.. is not. Also, the argument I guess is that someone was born “privileged” and if now we are artificially “privileged” it will make everything ok. Two wrongs making a right maybe?



If someone is purposely discriminated against, that is wrong no matter who is doing it. (I set this apart on purpose to make sure someone wasn’t too quick on the flame)



You have no choice in being born black, white, Korean, male or female, rich or poor. However, you can choose to educate yourself, get experience in your chosen field, and earn the respect of others and yourself. How does anyone ever come to respect themselves when everything in there life was not earned, but given to them because they were “disadvantaged?” Give me a break; did I go around complaining because my dad was a factory worker and not a United pilot? Did I complain that I paid for my ratings myself? No, in fact, I am glad that I had that situation because I appreciate everything that I have worked hard for. I know the value of hard work and have the satisfaction of knowing that if you set goals and really mean them, you can achieve a lot. And it is hard to stomach anyone reaching the same place because of an artificial advantage. Keep in mind, I put nepotism in the same boat as “preferential” hiring of any kind. Everyone should have to meet the same requirements.



I know that I probably just wasted a lot of typing, and someone will probably read something out of context and choose to flame. However, go back to the original quote and honestly ask yourself how having a TIME requirement is anything but an equalizer? Everyone knows what it takes, and can do something about that!

 

[CSY Mon]

Great post Mr. Corditas.


Agree on all points

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yeah, but its not up to the recruiters. The government requires affirmative action. That's what women in aviation are there for. So their emlpoyer can check a box and stay out of trouble. I've flown with several females, and I can honestly say that checking a box is all they're good for.

 

[Flip Conroy]

I've flown with several females, and I can honestly say that checking a box is all they're good for.

And I've flown with, trained and checked many females that could fly, think and make decisions FAR better than many males. Including yourself, I'm sure. You are a credit to your race, sex and creed. Thank you for holding up the bar and making all us males look so...well, male.

 

[English]

Maybe they are using the 500 hours Part 121 requirement as a back-door way to keep women and minority pilots out of Airtran. Given the low numbers of both in this industry, the 500 hours of Part 121 PIC could make it even more difficult for women and minorities to apply. I fly on Airtran 3 or 4 times a month, and I have never seen either in the cockpit.

Sleepy, is that you?