Airnet Interview

[boxcar]

AirNet work? Sure it is. But as mentioned, it can be alot of fun. Taking off in freezing rain bragging? No, but it can be done safely when done properly.

I need to know more about how to safely take off in freezing rain. This tidbit was left out of my education.

 

[wingnutt]

c'mon now...one mans freezing rain is another mans light drizzle

 

[BoilerBacker]

I need to know more about how to safely take off in freezing rain. This tidbit was left out of my education.

Ah, how quickly I am reminded of the sarcastic comments, with regards to posts that were meant to be helpful, that led me to quit posting here a few months ago.

However, aparently I need to clarify/explain my comment. There obviously is a time to go and a time not to. But then again, that is the big decision and a decsion that should not be made lightly without taking many things into consideration. How severe is the freezing rain, what are the visibility and ceiling conditions, what is it going to take to return to land should the icing be more severe than expected... an ILS down to mins, simply stay in the pattern, etc. Assuming that I decided to go, here are a few things I would keep in mind. First, flying at night I have always been very fortunate that I rarely have to wait to depart. So, if needed I would get deiced at the last possible moment prior to taxi noting the holdover time for the fluid used and conditions present. Immediately prior to departure I would do one last inspection of the exterior of the aircraft (flying smaller aircraft gives me the luxury of being able to see both wings entirely) or have someone on the ground do it for me. If surfaces are still clean... depart. If not, possibly get deiced again at the end of the runway if possible or go back and wait it out. On climb out I would keep in mind that I want to climb as rapidly as possible (since the freezing rain is indicative of a temp inversion and I want to get up where the rain is not freezing) while keeping my airspeed ABOVE the minimum recommended airspeed for icing conditions (don't want that ice forming on the bottom of the wings.) The whole process requires constant attention to possible changing conditions and what is occuring around you.

I am by NO MEANS encouraging anyone to go out and depart/fly in freezing rain. But, on the other hand, just because someone mentions ice or freezing rain does not necessarilly mean you have to park the plane. Let's face it, flying an airplane is not that difficult. It is the decision making and responsibility we assume that we are really paid for.... not to mention getting our freight/passengers to the destination SAFELY and ON TIME whenever possible.

This is only meant to in some small way explain/defend my previous statement. It is NOT meant to an all inclusive "Flying in Icing according to Boilerbacker." There are exceptions to everything and I have also probably left out some things. But, it has been a long night at the end of a long week.

Have a great weekend
Boilerbacker

 

[StarChecker]

Great post Boiler. Enjoy your weekend too.

 

[A36DRIVER]

Finally someone who got it right. And the point of persective is very important when talking WX. Nice work, one for the freight Dogs!

 

[boxcar]

Finally someone who got it right. And the point of persective is very important when talking WX. Nice work, one for the freight Dogs!

When you're taxiing out in freezing rain, do you ever wonder why the 121 folks aren't moving? After all, there's nothing in standard 121 op specs that mentions freezing rain, and 121 operators observe the same regulatory restrictions as do 135 operators. Is it because they're all chicken sh#t? Less experience in weather? Less anti-ice/deice equipment? Less understanding of the effects of icing? Airplanes with poor power to weight ratio? Or, heaven forbid, could it possibly be you who can answer yes to all the above? (The chicken sh#t part applying to your fear of ridicule by your peers and/or management).

 

[Riddle momma]

Training

Who does the training at AirNet?

I was able to get the phone interview, but seeing I only had a green card, Bob told me I couldn't be trained at Flight Safety because of the new rules. So, there went the opportunity

I was so distraught, that I just said thanks anyway and that was the end. However, after I hung up, I started thinking, what about the twins? Does flight safety do their training too?

He also mentioned something about the non-US citizen policy changing in the near future, anyone have any info on this?

I really really want to go to AirNet please help me

 

[StarChecker]

If you knew anything about our company, Boxcar, you would know that issues with management and/or peers do not exist when it comes to safety. If I don't feel comfortable flying, I don't. If I have to bump work, I do. There's never any ridicule or even discussion involved. The decision is mine.

And as I type this I find myself wondering why I'm defending myself to people who weren't there and more importantly...were not the PIC...I was.

Have a nice day...and try understanding something before you criticize it.

 

[BoilerBacker]

Training

Dear Riddle Momma,

I am sorry to hear about your situation. In spite of the ongoing debate over icing and now apparently wise passenger carrying pilots verses ignorant Freight Dogs in this thread, AirNet is a pretty decent place to work. The problem for people currently in your position is, the Barons, 310s, Chieftains, and Caravans are all pretty much treated equally. You are either a "prop" pilot or a Lear pilot at AirNet. In initial training, everyone gets qualified in the Baron. Once you pass your Baron checkride your then get checked out in other planes. Which planes you get checked out in is determined by which run you will be flying. You are just as likely to be flying a Caravan directly out of training as you are a Baron. Therefore, it would not be very prudent at this time to hire people who were not able to be trained in the Caravan. This problem not only affects new hires but has also been an issue for several guys who have been with the company for several years but cannot get trained in the Lear at this time because of citizenship issues. We can only hope that this problem will be resolved as quickly as possible.

In the mean time, good luck and fly safe.
Boilerbacker

 

[wingnutt]

When you're taxiing out in freezing rain, do you ever wonder why the 121 folks aren't moving?

...nope, never even crosses my mind. have a nice day

 

[upndsky]

I thought the non-us citizen rule applied only to training in aircraft that are more than 12,500 lbs, which certainly doesn't apply to any of the props that Airnet flies, except perhaps the Caravan (can someone clarify this?) and most definitely the Lears (I know, it's a jet). I am a little surprised that Airnet would turn someone down for this reason, since he/she is not going to see a Lear for some time to come. And if Riddle Momma is right, by his own admission the recruiter said this non-citizen issue will be settled soon.

The freight company I fly for has a number of non-citizens on the payroll and continues to hire such pilots, as long as they have the legal means to work here. In our case, the largest plane we fly is a Cessna 402 and all training is done inhouse.

 

[wingnutt]

caravan max takeoff weight = 8750#

...maybe they dont want anyone not eligible to fly all the aircraft on their ticket???

 

[fraitman]

Nice post Boiler. You are using your head, considering all factors, and getting the job done while being safe and legal. I'm sure your company must appreciate your level of thinking.

Some pilots have these religious convictions when it comes to regulations and safety issues. They draw these arbritrary boundaries to what they can do, and fail to take an objective look at all the information available. A conscientious decision should be made considering the circumstances with each indiviual situation. There are so many variables, a good pilot looks at all the factors, and makes sure they also have an out for any potential hazardous situation they may encounter.

Some may refuse to fly if freezing rain is on the ATIS, but it never occurs to them to look at the icing themselves, and make a decision as the Captain on what the conditions actually are. I know freight dogs who have doing this kind of work for 20 - 30 years with no incidents, accidents or violations, and they consistently find a way to get the job done. They use their head and keep management, customers, and the FAA all happy.

 

[100LL... Again!]

At the regional where I flew, the vast majority of pilots came directly from CFI jobs and never flew in any type of sognificant weather prior to being hired. Many of them had the perspective that 135 freight pilots were bunch of unprofessional clowns that were lucky to have lived through the job. I think that they were trying to justify their own lower level of experience by putting our profession down.

I have seen a few 121 pilots get antsy over weather that would not have even registered on the fear scale for someone with a lot of experience. Am I dissin' 121 pilots? Nope. I are one.

I had to laugh when pilots who never flew 135 would take a parental tone with me about how unsafe freight flying was.

Screw them, they were'nt there. Some people are more comfortable in a turboprop or RJ with two pilots and lots of support. Fine. But don't talk of whence you know not.

Doin' it freight-doggy style was the best!

 

[tdvalve]

Judging from the bravado, I doubt that any of you heroic pilots have ever actually flown in freezing rain. It might have been forecast or reported, but it probably was very, very light or didn't exist. You wouldn't be here making light of it if you had. A light twin in moderate freezing rain is minutes away from being a smoking hole. I followed a similar thread about flying in thunderstorms a few months ago. Same debate, a few aces purporting to speak for all freight pilots poo-pooed the danger. I've got a few years flying night freight, and its's not a very forgiving environment. I'd hate to see some inexperienced freight pilot taking any of this BS to heart and going out and killing himself. You can do it and maybe get away with it a few times. But, it'll bite you in the butt if it becomes a habit. Problem is, it might bite you in the butt the first time.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
I thought I'd post this for those interestd in reading it:

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/181878-1.html

http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/181877-1.html

I have an opinion about icing that is based on the result of a Navy SH-60 that crashed in the mountains of Southern California after an encounter with icing, all aboard were killed.
Logically, I think that any flight/mission should be evaluated prior to launch. Careful consideration should be given to the limitations of self and machine. This is a moving target when viewed from one pilot to another, one machine to another. However, from a person that has "been there and done that" as a flight crewmember under some pretty hairy conditions. Demanding missions that require the maximum of both man and machine can be accomplished professionally and safely. The mark of a professional is knowing when that limit is reached and then having the fortitude to "raise the BS flag".

Regards and Fly Safely out there,

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[tdvalve]

An exerpt from one of the Avweb articles:

"Icing from above (freezing rain) is a component of the natural selection process. Out west, those conditions occur perhaps a couple times a year. The pilots who fly in those conditions are eliminated from the aviator gene pool and you no longer have to avoid them while they are taking off from taxiways at uncontrolled airports."

Funny, but morbid and accurate.

 

[jaybird]

"Suburban sold off its CE-402Bs and purchased known-icing certified Cessna Caravans to replace them. The Caravans lack some of the systems redundancy of the turbo-twins and are not as popular with the pilots (who are looking to build multi-engine time — not single-engine turboprop time). But Suburban can now launch when the conditions are safe, even if there is a blanket forecast for isolated severe icing covering 2-1/2 states."

I think some C208 drivers may have something to say about this(the last paragraph from "An Icing Encounter). I don't fly the C208, but I know a lot of guys who do. I think I'd rather be in a 402 even if it wasn't certified for "known icing."

Comments anyone?

 

[Checks]

First of all, the C208 can be a scary airplane in the ice. Ensure the airplane is "clean" prior to takeoff and have an out in icing conditions. Some people say it is a flying truck, well, in the winter it is a flying ice cube.

As far as freezing rain. I wasnt there so I suspect that there wasnt freezing rain, just a report on the ATIS of freezing rain. I will say that if you were to encounter MODERATE Freezing Rain on takeoff/climb to altitude in a beat up BE-58 then you would be screwed like a *hore in Thailand. I dont think any aircraft at Airnet are certified to fly in moderate freezing rain. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure management wouldn't be willing to take that risk. If it was just "light drizzle" then you should have said that.
In addition, someone mentioned holdover times. Being de-iced on the ground provides ZERO protection in the air. Holdover times are just a guide that dont even give you a time for moderate freezing rain(at least none that I have ever seen). I understand flying between thunderstorms and in all kinds of **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ty weather but freezing rain bites pilots in the ass every now and then. Just Be careful because it is your a** on the line along with your career and certificates.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Yes tdvalve, I have never flown in freezing rain. I was bluffing all along. Thanks for being the all-knowing.

I didn't hear much bravado. Some pilots are more skittish than others. What else is new?