Airlines vs Military

[Draginass]

Stay until at least 20 and get your retirement. The airlines companies and management are thieving P'sOS. Expect to get furloughed after a few years. I had over 3 years with a "stable" major and got shown to the street for now over 3 years and have had to fly for a scum-bag freighter outfit. At least it's by relative choice since I've got the military pension as a safety net.

Airline flying is not what you think. It's not a reliable second career and after a couple of years you find out that the managements spend most of their time figuring out how to take money out of your pocket rather than trying to lead and run a profitable airline.

If you think that there are ethical problems within leadership in the military, that is a drop in the ocean compared to the outright dishonesty and greed in corporate America.

 

[Orionpilot]

I think the original question posed was should you stay in and retire at 20 or go beyond. A lot depends on your personal situation, is the family tired of moving, are the kids in high school, what does your significant other want, are you ready for the Pentagon-staff flying desk job or the 0-6 payback overeas tour etc. Because as we all know, if you want to go beyond 20 and retire as an 0-6 you have to play the game, politics and all. For me 20 years was enough and the airlines were a refreshing change of pace, no ground job, no department head meetings, no phone calls during the night/weekend, no paperwork, no evaluations/ fitreps and the best part: when you're done with a trip, you walk away and forget you have a job until the next showtime. However the flip side to that is the additional pension you recieve for staying past 20 (I think it was 2.5% per year). Its hard to quantify because a lot can happen in the next 5 years especially with a war going on, but once you have decided be steadfast in your decision and don't look back. In addition to the other advice that was given I would also recommend using your last 5 years to become as debt free as possible because first year airline pay can be a lifestyle change if you're not ready for it.

Good luck in your decision

 

[fly4unclesam]

All,

Thanks for your replies and advice so far. I appreciate it.

 

[fly4unclesam]

It will also be interesting to see how a change in the age 60 rule, which would probably become law in 2009 (assuming it follows the normal timeline for legislation), affects the hiring market in 2012 when I become eligible for military retirement.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I vote stay in until at least 20. That retirement check can pay the mortgage and give you lots of choices about what you decide to do. The medical is not so bad. Much cheaper to use Tricare and a supplement than take AirTran's medical. Other companies offer better med benefits.
As far as staying beyond 20 - that depends on timing with regards to hiring.
I was in a great flying assignment but decided to move my retirement fwd to about 8 months earlier than I originally planned because the companies I was interested in were hiring.
You can never start too early with the networking thing. I was lousy at it - didn't think far enough ahead. Also most of the guys I stayed in contact with who left the mil or retired ahead of me were at Delta, United and AA. Fat lot of good that did me when I was looking for a job.

 

[ExAF]

Retire at 20

All good info above. Couple of other points to add. The older you get the harder it is to get hired on the outside no matter what career you pursue. Age discrimination is out there, it is rampant and it is very hard to prove. Younger is more marketable. At 42 you are much more likely to get hired than at 50. Also after 20 years, you are essentially working for half pay. You will get half (half base minus the BAS, BAQ, flight pay, etc) whether you retire or not. You are working for the other half and allowances. Why not take the half now and get started on your next career (whatever it may be) and start gaining seniority (which is everything in airline flying and still desirable in other careers) and experience. Just don't go into commercial flying thinking it is all roses. Job security is not a sure thing and your mileage may vary depending on the company you end up with and your crystal ball. IMHO you will be better off if you retire at 20 and get started on that second career, no matter what it is, than if you stay in longer and add to the mil retirement. I was in your shoes almost 8 years ago and I retired at 20. I don't regret it for a moment, even with the furloughs. If you have any specific questions or want more of my personal history and experiences, PM me and I'll be glad to share. Good luck...ExAF

Almost forgot, Tricare is an outstanding benefit. It is comparable to most large company plans and usually costs much less. Even while the administrations continually works to reduce the retiree benefits, it is still a valuable benefit. You would not believe how much it is worth until you have to depend on it. As medical premiums and co-pays rise, it makes tricare all the more valuable and you just plain can't beat the prescription benefit. Dental isn't worth mentioning. Cheers...ExAF

 

[Big Slick]

The ultimate trick for someone with 15 years service is to get hired with someone and then take a military leave of absence for 5 years. Unfortunately, this has become much harder to do now-a-days. With the "trickle-down effect" in the airlines, all the full time guard and reserve jobs have been taken. Going back on active duty is not an option anymore either.

The AF is a lot different today than it was just 5 years ago. Most squadrons are now full of highly experienced, furloughed pilots waiting around to be recalled or on a MLOA. The average AF squadron now has 15-20 furloughees. The reserves are the same way. It's unreal. I would say the average # of flight hours in any squadron is double what it was 5-6 years ago.

In a lot of ways, it has become the norm to start your airline career at 42 instead of 32.

 

[FL250]

You are going to have to make the transition to the civilian sector eventually anyway. If flying is what you plan on doing for a second career, I would work it so that you are in training class at your favorite airline while you are on terminal leave. I got my type rating in my 20th year and was lucky and got picked up by SWA. Didn't even look back.....this is a WAY better deal!

 

[JimNtexas]

Jimntexas, what you doing in the civi world to pay the bills? If I could find a job that paid similar, i'd be done with flying. Being "always gone" is getting old. Life is passing by, etc....

I figured out pretty early on that while being an EWO in fighters was a teriffic job, there wasn't much future in it after my service time.

For that reason I bought one of the very first home computers, wrote programs on my own, volunteered to work on some of the early USAF flight planning efforts, and latter took some distance learning computer science.

When I retired in late 1994 the internet boom was just starting and anyone who write a 'hello world' program could find a job.

I got hired into an internet startup as a junior developer here in Austin while I still had two months to retirement, so I took terminal leave. I've been a software developer ever since .

I've been in several startups, none of which have really hit the big time, but its all been fun. I also purchased a retail tax preperation franchise that my wife runs as a hedge against age discrimination, but so far software is still my primary job.

Ironically, there is a small defense company I found here in Austin that might be a fit. They need a trainer/field engineer type guy to go out with the their boxes to help their USAF and Army customers. It would objectively make no sense for me to join them, it wouldn't pay a lot more than I make now, and there would be much more travel. From an objective point of view my main gain would be job security, since there is no security in software startups. I have tricare with a suplemental for insurance, so that's not a factor.

But I'm very tempted. It'd be fun to work on an Air Force base again.

I think.

 

[Gate 69]

Get out after 20, if you don't, your working for half pay. I mean, I assume you are no longer eligible for the 25K a yr bonus after 20 and you get half your base pay at retirement just for staying alive.

Right now you need to be maxing out your thrift savings plan and IRAs. You will not be able to save anything for retirement in your first couple years at any airline on first year pay, which suck because these are your prime working years.

I love the airline lifestyle. I work 3 days a week. No more OPRs, OERs, ground training, etc. Come on over the water is fine. With any normal USAF flying resume you will be in high demand by all the good airlines. Also not always stated, but important: make friends with everyone, you don't need any enemies when your job hunting in 5 yrs. It will always be not what you know, but who you know. One guy you didnt get along with in the service can easily cost you everything at your favorite airline.

If you are not looking for a flying job after the service, forget everything I said, stay 28, go to some easy Randolph staff job or better yet to some embassy job.

As far as your next job, go with your strengths. If you're a great instructor, go ATC. If you're a mission hacker who lives for TDY, go C-17. Don't let some commander talk you into something senseless. Good Luck!

 

[AMRCostUnit]

I think the important part of having miltary retirement is having healthcare AFTER you retire from the airlines. I made a clean break from AD (no reserves) after 7 years and with all the financial instability at the airlines, I am concerned about my ability to afford post-retirement healthcare. Currently, retiree medcial is covered at AA...will it be in 17 years (or 22 years to 65)? I certainly have my doubts.

Unit

 

[AlbieF15]

I bailed at 14+ years, but had a great part time gig. It worked VERY well for me. However, here are some considerations...

For getting out...

-How much of a businessperson are you? What are your dreams? My Emerald Coast business has been a dream come true, and I've had a blast. My latest project is perhaps purchasing a stable/horse boarding facility. A UPT buddy is selling mortgages, buidling cabins, and works at FDX for "fun". What are your dreams? Hard to build much of an empire working 7-5 for the "man" everyday in the AF.

--How much do you want to be an airline pilot? Leaving NOW means UPS, FDX, and a host of others are hiring. Seniority is nice. Will they be hiring when you retire? Will your retirement be enough to live comfortably? How much do you need to FLY for a living? Right now you can get a flying job...in 5 years who knows?

--How tired are you of deploying, more with less, service above self, etc etc? Do you LIKE your situation now or are you just marking days off a calendar for the next 5 years?

For staying in...

Job security. Watch CNN. Looks like we got a job for the next few years.

Pride. Hard to beat. After 2300 + hours, stepped away from the Eagle last week. Cried and sniffled like a little girl. Won't get that kind of pride anywhere else...

Pay...not bad as a Maj/LTC/Col. You won't buy a ranch or a yacht, but you won't sweat eating out or the occasional new TV if you stay in.

The ultimate?

The "fence straddling" guy who finds an AGR slot but gets an airline line number prior. Problem is A) its hard to execute and B) you poison the well for those behind you. Tough to get someone from unit X hired after 1 or 2 guys pull that act... Again...I ain't preachin'....and your mileage may vary.

I got stories from all sides. My number is on the link below...feel free to call sometime if you need a sounding board. The call is worth what you pay for it...(nothin'...)

 

[Attkpuke]

I think the best thing to do is...stay current, get all your ratings, get your masters or a second bs or some other certificate of achievement that will position you in 5 years to be competitive in the job you would like to do for 20 years. then in 5 years, when the time comes you will be able to evaluate the airline industry and make the best choice.

 

[Purpledog]

Stay in! I got out at 15 and I wish I had stayed. Your QOL will be much better with that back up income. You can drop trips and not have to worry about paying the bills. You will be competitive. We had a couple guys in their 50's in my new hire class.

 

[Hold@FIR]

The "fence-straddling" recommendation above to seek an AGR post has a distant cousin that's easier to find in ART positions. It takes 5 years to get tenured as a civil servant, and with the Catch 62 "military buyback" of your active duty years for credit, you can add those 15 years (add another 4 if you went to the zoo) for about 13K. In other words, work 5 years for a 20-year retirement. It's a deferred retirement that you don't receive until age 62 (normal ART retirement is about age 56 if you stick with it), but it's nice peace of mind before venturing into (or back into) the unpredictable pension landscape of the airlines. The active-duty retirement is better in that you get it that much sooner, but the combined civil servant pension, the TSP (5% matching), and reservist retirement (identical to the AD pension except you can't have it 'til age 60) add up to quite bit more monthly income than AD retirement when it does start coming. More importantly, you're in the Reserves - a far and away better place to be than active duty under just about any circumstances. You know you can be home on whatever holiday/birthday is important to you, and you don't worry about getting moved. Just food for thought, good luck with the decision.

 

[TallMan]

Faced the same delima a few years ago and retired at 20 and went to WN. If you are serious about going the airlines, plan to be flying at 20 and position yourself to make the leap successfully. While staying in the AF beyond 20 has its own rewards, if you are serious about flying after the Air Force, make the leap at 20. I believe getting hired is easier and seniority obviously rules in this buisness so you want to get on a list and hopefully get to enjoy some seniority before you hit 60/65. The increased retirement pay from a 30 year career would be nice but if you get on with a stable company and can stay there until you retire again, that increased retirement pay will be more than offset. That is a somewhat big "if" though in this business and in my opinion, long term job security should drive your job search.

As far as the lifestyle, I enjoyed every minute of my time in the AF (including my share of "bad deal" deployments) and do not regret staying to 20. I do miss the flying/comraderie/sense of purpose/etc. in the AF and had my family situation been different, I'd probably still be in but I believe my current situation is best for my family. After 20+ years of the nomadic military lifestyle (which typically only gets more nomadic between 20 and 30 years) we are really enjoying putting down roots and enjoying knowing we will be in one place for a while.

The airline job is enjoyable but professionally it is not as rewarding as my time in the Air Force. The flipside is that my stress level is about 5% of what is was during my last 3-4 years in the AF doing those typical O-5 jobs. Being on the road 13-15 days a month is not the greatest but the days off are all mine and the only thought I give to the job when I'm home is making sure I know when my next trip starts. As far as my family is concerned, the lifestyle change is a big improvement. My 2 cents.

 

[holmie]

This is a good thread. I put in 8 yrs active and bailed during the drawdown of the early 90's. Busted ass in the commuters waiting for the big show. Got to a major in 2000 and was on the street 1.5 yrs later. No one was hiring after 9-11 except the military. After 2.5 yrs I got an AGR gig and have been very happy. Since the pilots at my legacy got a nice 40% pay cut while gone I can't even match my current pay and bennies unless a senior wide body FO. It is depressing to say the least. Unless one can get on at FEDEX or UPS you will be poor for many years to come. People need to run the numbers, these jobs except those chosen few are not what they used to be. Good luck.

Holmie

 

[fly4unclesam]

Great info guys...Thanks!!