Airlines vs Military

[fly4unclesam]

I am 5 years short of reaching my 20 in the Air Force and am beginning to think about whether to retire and go to the airlines at 20 or stay in and maximize my miltary retirement (although if I do that my flying days are basically over). Personally, I want to retire and begin an airline career but I also have a wife and three children to think about. I would be interested in any advice from retired military folks who did retire at 20 and how they rate their current lifestyle with the one they had as a military aviator. In today's environment, are retired military pilots in their early 40s competitive?

Thanks

 

[scoreboard]

Jump out and never look back. Stay current flying to get an airline job, your very competive at 40. Get the job then give back to the family, it will be the best decision of your life. Based on my life today, I appear to have had no "lifestyle" prior to retirement.

 

[Big Slick]

I have been furloughed for over 5 years and I could get out again in about a year. I am so tired of the military that it is very tempting to interview at FedEx/UPS and leave after 15+ years of service. The smart thing to do, however, is just tough it out for 5 more years and get the $40k a year.

Here is the problem with getting out with 15 years of service: Most folks want to finish out their retirement in the reserves. What ends up happening is they work their normal airline schedule and then do the reserves on their days off. If your home, pilot base and reserve unit are in 3 different places, your life sucks big time. I have lots of friends who are doing this. Believe me, it is not "living the dream." Unless your dream is to never be at home.

Are you willing to cut your ties with the military completely after 15 years? That's a tough question.

On the other hand, if you don't fly at all the last 5 years you won't be able to get an airline job. Kind of a Catch 22.

Can you volunteer for some job like T-6s to Vance that is hard for AFPC to fill and will keep you flying? It sucks, but you will at least stay current. Without recency of experience you will not get an interview. The SWA application makes you list your flying time going backwards in one year intervals for the last 5 years. Yours would be blank. Not good.

Military pilots in their early 40s are competitive IF they have been flying recently.

IMHO

 

[fly4unclesam]

Big Slick,

I think I need to clarify. I am definetly staying to 20. I am at 15 now but, as you said, it is worth 5 more years for the guaranteed pension...no doubt about it. I am currently in a staff job but I should return to the cockpit for my last assignment so I will be actively flying. I am actually leaning towards trying to get a T-1 job at a UPT base or maybe back to the C-17 (I'm not sure if the extra heavy time is worth the ops tempo though). So, I plan on being current, 42 years old, retired O-5 and just trying to get a feel for life on the other side.

 

[Kingwood]

Check your PMs

 

[Ricky]

Military Retirement

I stayed for 20 years, and then joined the airlines. If you can fly for the last years actively, or at least with an aero club (with multi engine) I'd stay. The pension is a huge security against the instability of the airline business.

I'm well aware the military pension is not guaranteed. However, for the government to default on miltary pensions, well, the entire country would have to be in a mess.

The goverment pension is not enough to live confortably, however, it pays my mortage and utilities. The rest I can easily make up with or without a airline job.

Bottom line, If you can stand it, hold on for 5 more, then come join us retired folks. It's great to be paid to stay alive. We look foward seeing you.

Ricky

 

[Big Slick]

I have 1000+ hours in the T-1 and over 2500 in AETC. AETC IP time is the best time you can log. If you could finish out your career in AETC, that would be the best thing in my opinion.

I was hired at two airlines at age 32. In both classes, the youngest guys had lots of white jet time. The airlines love AETC IP time. In my 727 FE class, 4 of the 6 in my group were coming from AETC. The C-17 is good, but T-1 time would be better. Plus, you don't deploy.

On the other hand, being a line IP in AETC is tough duty. When the new class hits the line, you go in at 4am everyday for the first 6 weeks. And, as you know, it's a 12 hour work day. For older guys, it's tough. Eventually, you get an office job in the squadron and then it's not too bad.

Also, you fly with a horrible co-pilot everyday!

Every year I was on the line, I flew ~500 hours. 95% PIC and 90% IP. Good stuff for the airlines.

I would be afraid to work in the airline industry without a military retirement. It may be all I have someday.

 

[brainhurts]

Stay in and start applying about 8-9 mos out. Join Air inc and go to the seminars. There will be a lot of jobs out there when you retire, and with the retiremant and medical, you can take a less than desirable job while you wait for a good one. Good Luck.

 

[c9skytrain]

Stick it out. Having the deposit in your checking at the beginning of the month is a huge relief. The medical alone saves thousands of dollars a year.

 

[Big Slick]

c9skytrain,

How does the military retirement help with your medical costs? Doesn't your company have a medical plan?

Just curious. I always figured the military medical would be worthless if I get recalled to my airline job. I thought you could only use Tri-Care if you had no other insurance.

 

[Afterprop]

Tri-Care for Retirees . . .

I use Tri-Care as my primary insurance which cost $460/year for a family -- that is a fantastic bargin . . . I don't know if any of the airlines can match it . . . dental, on the other hand could be better, and I use my airline's dental plan. Getting the monthly Uncle Sam love note every month is really nice, but don't fool yourself; you and your familiy have sacrificed big time for that love note.

Stay the five years . . . invest, and fully fund your ROTH IRAs . . . it will be awhile before you can invest/save again after retirement.

Keep 'em Level~n~True

 

[JimNtexas]

I am 5 years short of reaching my 20 in the Air Force and am beginning to think about whether to retire and go to the airlines at 20 or stay in and maximize my miltary retirement (although if I do that my flying days are basically over). ...

I retired at 20. I was a mere navigator, so airlines were not an option. Still, I'm very glad I did. I found lots of opportunity in the civilian software world, which suited me well. If a chubby ex-navaigator can make it as a civilian, anyone can.

I'm very grateful to the Air Force and I wouldn't trade my experiences there for anything. For me, 20 years was enough.

Retiring was a bit like being born again, but it turned out to have few downsides for me. If nothing else, it was great changing my dress and appearance standards from those of the Air Force to those of an internet startup.

The total goodness of being retired military didn't sink in until the day came when I hadn't gone to work for a couple of months, yet Uncle Sam kept sending paychecks! You take a 50% base pay cut every day you stay on active duty after you become retirement eligible.

I would be astonished if you didn't find an excellent position in the civilian world in short order.

 

[scoreboard]

Jimntexas, what you doing in the civi world to pay the bills? If I could find a job that paid similar, i'd be done with flying. Being "always gone" is getting old. Life is passing by, etc....

 

[Benhuntn]

I waited until 28 yrs. Knowing now what I do, I regret not getting out sooner. I was 50 when I got hired so 40 is no big deal. There were 8 guys over 40 in my class of 24. I would say make the jump.

 

[jtf]

At least in 5 years you should have a better idea of what is going on at the airlines and how the probable change to age 65 retirement will have changed things- it's very possible that the hiring/ recalls happening now slow down or stop if the regulations change for about 5 years after the change occurs. Do your best to make some friends at FedEx or UPS since those are now the highest paying and probably will continue to have the best job security, even if the current majors get their compensation back up. NetJets also has a lot of ex military pilots and works well for the many who are still in the reserves or national guard. Keep checking out things here to see what the trends are and good luck whatever you decide.

 

[Joey]

I did 15 years, got in a guard unit and got hired at the airlines. I've been activated three and a half of the last five years and gained seniority the entire time. You have to do what is right for YOU.
I wouldn't recommend the double commute, it's tough.

 

[Douglesso]

I recently made a similar decision at the 14 yr point. I feel fortunate to have found a flying position in the ANG. The alternative was to stay in, take a staff assignment, and probably end at 20 with four years of not flying. OR... Behind door number 2 AFPC was willing to entertain me volunteering for a year long remote, and then to the assignment of my choice. They cut both orders at the same time, the catch being that you must volunteer prior to ANY assignment offers. Good luck.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

FWIW, my neighbor is on LOA from DAL. He got a FT ANG gig. Said he won't go back to DAL when his leave expires and wants to finish his career with the AF. With the pay cuts, etc. at DAL he has no interest in going back. His wife has a decent job so I speculate that weighed in his decision. You've got some time to decide and see the way the winds are blowing. Good luck.

 

[radar_contact]

14 yrs was enough for me. Knowing I would have to put up with more of the same BS with 40,000 less people in the AF over the next 6 yrs in a non-flying staff, or remote assignment was more than enough reason for me to take the leap. Not easy to do with a wife and 3 kids, but worth it for my sanity. Fortunately, I got a reserve job lined up along with the airline job. Made the decision and ain't looking back. Only time will tell if it was the right one.

 

[Deuce130]

Make the best use of the next five years you can. Call up or contact every person you've ever flown with during your career that is now flying for an airline (crucial for FDX, especially). Some may tell you to pound sand, some may help. Lay the groundwork now for when you retire, don't push it off. Also, keep an ear to the ground for any non-pilot opportunities that come your way, you just may find one that appeals to you more than night hub turns or Motel-6 layovers.

 

[Draginass]

Stay until at least 20 and get your retirement. The airlines companies and management are thieving P'sOS. Expect to get furloughed after a few years. I had over 3 years with a "stable" major and got shown to the street for now over 3 years and have had to fly for a scum-bag freighter outfit. At least it's by relative choice since I've got the military pension as a safety net.

Airline flying is not what you think. It's not a reliable second career and after a couple of years you find out that the managements spend most of their time figuring out how to take money out of your pocket rather than trying to lead and run a profitable airline.

If you think that there are ethical problems within leadership in the military, that is a drop in the ocean compared to the outright dishonesty and greed in corporate America.

 

[Orionpilot]

I think the original question posed was should you stay in and retire at 20 or go beyond. A lot depends on your personal situation, is the family tired of moving, are the kids in high school, what does your significant other want, are you ready for the Pentagon-staff flying desk job or the 0-6 payback overeas tour etc. Because as we all know, if you want to go beyond 20 and retire as an 0-6 you have to play the game, politics and all. For me 20 years was enough and the airlines were a refreshing change of pace, no ground job, no department head meetings, no phone calls during the night/weekend, no paperwork, no evaluations/ fitreps and the best part: when you're done with a trip, you walk away and forget you have a job until the next showtime. However the flip side to that is the additional pension you recieve for staying past 20 (I think it was 2.5% per year). Its hard to quantify because a lot can happen in the next 5 years especially with a war going on, but once you have decided be steadfast in your decision and don't look back. In addition to the other advice that was given I would also recommend using your last 5 years to become as debt free as possible because first year airline pay can be a lifestyle change if you're not ready for it.

Good luck in your decision

 

[fly4unclesam]

All,

Thanks for your replies and advice so far. I appreciate it.

 

[fly4unclesam]

It will also be interesting to see how a change in the age 60 rule, which would probably become law in 2009 (assuming it follows the normal timeline for legislation), affects the hiring market in 2012 when I become eligible for military retirement.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I vote stay in until at least 20. That retirement check can pay the mortgage and give you lots of choices about what you decide to do. The medical is not so bad. Much cheaper to use Tricare and a supplement than take AirTran's medical. Other companies offer better med benefits.
As far as staying beyond 20 - that depends on timing with regards to hiring.
I was in a great flying assignment but decided to move my retirement fwd to about 8 months earlier than I originally planned because the companies I was interested in were hiring.
You can never start too early with the networking thing. I was lousy at it - didn't think far enough ahead. Also most of the guys I stayed in contact with who left the mil or retired ahead of me were at Delta, United and AA. Fat lot of good that did me when I was looking for a job.

 

[ExAF]

Retire at 20

All good info above. Couple of other points to add. The older you get the harder it is to get hired on the outside no matter what career you pursue. Age discrimination is out there, it is rampant and it is very hard to prove. Younger is more marketable. At 42 you are much more likely to get hired than at 50. Also after 20 years, you are essentially working for half pay. You will get half (half base minus the BAS, BAQ, flight pay, etc) whether you retire or not. You are working for the other half and allowances. Why not take the half now and get started on your next career (whatever it may be) and start gaining seniority (which is everything in airline flying and still desirable in other careers) and experience. Just don't go into commercial flying thinking it is all roses. Job security is not a sure thing and your mileage may vary depending on the company you end up with and your crystal ball. IMHO you will be better off if you retire at 20 and get started on that second career, no matter what it is, than if you stay in longer and add to the mil retirement. I was in your shoes almost 8 years ago and I retired at 20. I don't regret it for a moment, even with the furloughs. If you have any specific questions or want more of my personal history and experiences, PM me and I'll be glad to share. Good luck...ExAF

Almost forgot, Tricare is an outstanding benefit. It is comparable to most large company plans and usually costs much less. Even while the administrations continually works to reduce the retiree benefits, it is still a valuable benefit. You would not believe how much it is worth until you have to depend on it. As medical premiums and co-pays rise, it makes tricare all the more valuable and you just plain can't beat the prescription benefit. Dental isn't worth mentioning. Cheers...ExAF

 

[Big Slick]

The ultimate trick for someone with 15 years service is to get hired with someone and then take a military leave of absence for 5 years. Unfortunately, this has become much harder to do now-a-days. With the "trickle-down effect" in the airlines, all the full time guard and reserve jobs have been taken. Going back on active duty is not an option anymore either.

The AF is a lot different today than it was just 5 years ago. Most squadrons are now full of highly experienced, furloughed pilots waiting around to be recalled or on a MLOA. The average AF squadron now has 15-20 furloughees. The reserves are the same way. It's unreal. I would say the average # of flight hours in any squadron is double what it was 5-6 years ago.

In a lot of ways, it has become the norm to start your airline career at 42 instead of 32.

 

[FL250]

You are going to have to make the transition to the civilian sector eventually anyway. If flying is what you plan on doing for a second career, I would work it so that you are in training class at your favorite airline while you are on terminal leave. I got my type rating in my 20th year and was lucky and got picked up by SWA. Didn't even look back.....this is a WAY better deal!

 

[JimNtexas]

Jimntexas, what you doing in the civi world to pay the bills? If I could find a job that paid similar, i'd be done with flying. Being "always gone" is getting old. Life is passing by, etc....

I figured out pretty early on that while being an EWO in fighters was a teriffic job, there wasn't much future in it after my service time.

For that reason I bought one of the very first home computers, wrote programs on my own, volunteered to work on some of the early USAF flight planning efforts, and latter took some distance learning computer science.

When I retired in late 1994 the internet boom was just starting and anyone who write a 'hello world' program could find a job.

I got hired into an internet startup as a junior developer here in Austin while I still had two months to retirement, so I took terminal leave. I've been a software developer ever since .

I've been in several startups, none of which have really hit the big time, but its all been fun. I also purchased a retail tax preperation franchise that my wife runs as a hedge against age discrimination, but so far software is still my primary job.

Ironically, there is a small defense company I found here in Austin that might be a fit. They need a trainer/field engineer type guy to go out with the their boxes to help their USAF and Army customers. It would objectively make no sense for me to join them, it wouldn't pay a lot more than I make now, and there would be much more travel. From an objective point of view my main gain would be job security, since there is no security in software startups. I have tricare with a suplemental for insurance, so that's not a factor.

But I'm very tempted. It'd be fun to work on an Air Force base again.

I think.

 

[Gate 69]

Get out after 20, if you don't, your working for half pay. I mean, I assume you are no longer eligible for the 25K a yr bonus after 20 and you get half your base pay at retirement just for staying alive.

Right now you need to be maxing out your thrift savings plan and IRAs. You will not be able to save anything for retirement in your first couple years at any airline on first year pay, which suck because these are your prime working years.

I love the airline lifestyle. I work 3 days a week. No more OPRs, OERs, ground training, etc. Come on over the water is fine. With any normal USAF flying resume you will be in high demand by all the good airlines. Also not always stated, but important: make friends with everyone, you don't need any enemies when your job hunting in 5 yrs. It will always be not what you know, but who you know. One guy you didnt get along with in the service can easily cost you everything at your favorite airline.

If you are not looking for a flying job after the service, forget everything I said, stay 28, go to some easy Randolph staff job or better yet to some embassy job.

As far as your next job, go with your strengths. If you're a great instructor, go ATC. If you're a mission hacker who lives for TDY, go C-17. Don't let some commander talk you into something senseless. Good Luck!