Airlines Vs Fractional

[rajflyboy]

Dude >>> I guess I can't help It If you can't read!

 

[Lrjet55]

Sam Fisher,

I make no claims to have worked at a regional or with ALPA. I know one thing for sure, regionals will NEVER make any money because ALPA will never fight for you. Regional pilots will spend 15 years working before they ever reach 6 figures. I will agree that ALPA will save your job but were in this for money and security.

 

[Dash8]

ExpressJet has had the Director of Representation for ALPA as their professional negotiator/attorney for the past 3 years, since before 9/11 and the furloughs. He is the #1 attorney at ALPA and a "regional" has him full time. Not bad in my opinion. Are you sure ALPA still doesn't care about the small jet carriers?

Again, your arguments, while you seem to mean well, lack any sort of logical thought nor do they make sense to me.

Sam

could you possibly BE anymore of a union patsy?
alpa has consistantly pushed the regionals and their interests aside in favor of the mainlines especially with regards to us "bastard" prop flying wholly-owneds (but of course that must not be true for those flying the allmighty jet, according to you)

we even have an actual, no baloney, alpa national officer on our seniority list, yet we've still been essentially ignored, so don't even try to tell me that alpa isn't a duplicitous and even mildly corrupt organization, that most certianly does NOT look out for the entirety of its constituency.

to the frac guys, a word of advice, stay the h3ll away from alpa.
you could possibly get a decent mec locally, but alpa nat'l only cares about the big change they get from the mainlines.

 

[Lrjet55]

Luckily we are Teamsters. We will see what we do or dont get. Our MEC is showing proof of life and that they may just be on the ball.

I dont like to argue with regional guys because I have not been there but I would be willing to be this sam guy got to his regional with 300 hours and knows no different. There isnt anything wrong with that but we all have to be open minded.
My frax, union isnt better than your regional because...etc.

Lastly having some

#1 attorney at ALPA

,

Director of Representation for ALPA as their professional negotiator/attorney

again doesnt mean a darn thing. I hate to be rude or sound condesceding but do you think Mr. almighty is going to get you better wages or wok rules. You WILL NOT get more than COMAIR or PIEDMONT. Yeah, no!

The fact that you have one of the top guys means, simply and read nothing into it, he was the only person available and he was ASSIGNED to you.

"He represents all that is soulless and worng!"
http://funwavs.com/wavfile.php?quote=2282&sound=363

 

[Sam Fisher]

Sam Fisher,

I make no claims to have worked at a regional or with ALPA. I know one thing for sure, regionals will NEVER make any money because ALPA will never fight for you. Regional pilots will spend 15 years working before they ever reach 6 figures. I will agree that ALPA will save your job but were in this for money and security.

If you have no actual experience, how can you be so sure of this statement?

Rome wasn't built in a day and because the major airlines refused to fly these practice jets 10 years ago, this legacy now requires those of us at this level to slowly raise the bar continously over time in order to increase the overall level of compensation and work rules.

You still haven't told me who "ALPA" is. As a matter of fact, no one has answered that question. Is it some grand master entity? Some Wizard of Oz? Nope. ALPA is only as strong as your individual MEC, and in some cases, the coordination of individual MEC's amongst each other....such as what you see with Mesaba, Pinnacle and NWA right now with the Mesaba strike looming.

Sorry, but you can't just negotiate $60/hour pay rates to $120/hour pay rates over night. That takes time...and pilot groups willing to hold the line and increase it...and NOT settle for less than what the leader has. Read: MESA.

Sam

 

[Sam Fisher]

could you possibly BE anymore of a union patsy?
alpa has consistantly pushed the regionals and their interests aside in favor of the mainlines especially with regards to us "bastard" prop flying wholly-owneds (but of course that must not be true for those flying the allmighty jet, according to you)

we even have an actual, no baloney, alpa national officer on our seniority list, yet we've still been essentially ignored, so don't even try to tell me that alpa isn't a duplicitous and even mildly corrupt organization, that most certianly does NOT look out for the entirety of its constituency.

to the frac guys, a word of advice, stay the h3ll away from alpa.
you could possibly get a decent mec locally, but alpa nat'l only cares about the big change they get from the mainlines.

Dash, sorry that ALG hasn't worked out for you and that Matt Kernan isn't living up to your expectations. If you have an issue with him, take it up with him. No need to slander his name on a public board.

You said, "you could get a decent mec locally, but..." Dude, that MEC you refer to is made up of that particular airline's pilots. Has nothing to do with national. And national won't change until people elect LEC leaders with some sack who will change things at the BOD. Apparently you have very little understanding of how the process actually works. It is a MEMBER-DRIVEN organization. NOT top down as you might think. Duane Woerth isn't some deity or king. He doesn't have the power to make all RJ pilots make six figures over night. Come on...get real for a minute.

-Union Patsy

 

[Sam Fisher]

Luckily we are Teamsters. We will see what we do or dont get. Our MEC is showing proof of life and that they may just be on the ball.

I dont like to argue with regional guys because I have not been there but I would be willing to be this sam guy got to his regional with 300 hours and knows no different. There isnt anything wrong with that but we all have to be open minded.
My frax, union isnt better than your regional because...etc.

Is this the same Teamster's union that accidently filed with the NMB to open Section 6 negotiations between Teamsters and CHQ a few days late, thus causing the negotiations to start 1 year later? All unions have their problems. Are we to assume that the Teamsters aren't good because they represent an airline like Gulfstream who allows paying flight students to operate the right seat? Each individual carrier is different obviously.

I'm only on this thread because I see some misinformation and rhetoric that clearly lacks any factual basis whatsoever. What does my experience level have anything to do with ALPA and how it treats its MEC's? FYI - I was hired with well more than 300 hours and I'm well aware of what goes on at many different carriers. No need to assume anything about be me as we both know what assuming does...

Lastly having me , again doesnt mean a darn thing. I hate to be rude or sound condesceding but do you think Mr. almighty is going to get you better wages or wok rules. You WILL NOT get more than COMAIR or PIEDMONT. Yeah, no!

The fact that you have one of the top guys means, simply and read nothing into it, he was the only person available and he was ASSIGNED to you.

I never called him Mr Almighty. My point was that ALPA gave us a very important asset with this attorney. He's been around the block and is very talented. If you knew the full story, you'd know that he wasn't simply "assigned" to us. I am not under the misguided thought that he will get us "Comair rates or work rules" because I know better than that. MY NC will do that with the assistance of 2500 militant and angry pilots. That is where our leverage is. But having a top notch attorney helps.

So for those who came on here to flame me...simply because I take a different viewpoint - grow up.

Sam

 

[Dash8]

Dash, sorry that ALG hasn't worked out for you and that Matt Kernan isn't living up to your expectations. If you have an issue with him, take it up with him. No need to slander his name on a public board.

i wasn't slandering matt at all, go back and re-read my post, i have no issues with matt, don't really know him to have any issues with,
i was just stating a fact that having someone of such 'significance' in nat'l doesn't mean diddly for the pilot group he's a part of, that's all

as for alg or any other regional living up to anyones expectations, i think that line of thought is pretty universal now.
well except for those sell-out lowtimers going to mesa and the like just so they can be 'airline pilots' and fly 'jets'
now before you go off about my supposedly being jealous of jets or those kids, i could give a rats a55 about jets, i love the dash.
i just want to be able to have a decent quality of life (pay my bills on time, maybe put away a little every so often, and raise a family on)

You said, "you could get a decent mec locally, but..." Dude, that MEC you refer to is made up of that particular airline's pilots. Has nothing to do with national. And national won't change until people elect LEC leaders with some sack who will change things at the BOD. Apparently you have very little understanding of how the process actually works. It is a MEMBER-DRIVEN organization. NOT top down as you might think. Duane Woerth isn't some deity or king. He doesn't have the power to make all RJ pilots make six figures over night. Come on...get real for a minute.
-Union Patsy

this wasn't about nat'l having that kind of power to just decree how our qol and pay issues are, it was about their (as a group, no one specific person) inability to fairly represent all of their members, who you claim drive the organization (which i agree is true, unfortunately it's skewed to the side of mainline members at the expense of their respective regionals)
which results in essentially a class struggle between the regionals and the mainlines, that was my point, that nat'l could really care less about the regionals because they see the big $$$ coming from mainlines, which is why i called them duplicitous.

 

[Sam Fisher]

this wasn't about nat'l having that kind of power to just decree how our qol and pay issues are, it was about their (as a group, no one specific person) inability to fairly represent all of their members, who you claim drive the organization (which i agree is true, unfortunately it's skewed to the side of mainline members at the expense of their respective regionals)
which results in essentially a class struggle between the regionals and the mainlines, that was my point, that nat'l could really care less about the regionals because they see the big $$$ coming from mainlines, which is why i called them duplicitous.

Ref: the underlined phrase

Who is "national?" Who are you referring to and what power are you talking about? Every time I've needed something from national (pin code, membership card, ALPA pin, etc), I've called some staffer at national and gotten what I need. They never cared that I don't fly a bus or a boeing.

I guess my biggest confusion here is this notion that ALPA National doesn't care about us little people. What exactly does that mean? No one has given examples. And I don't buy the whole RJDC claim because again, ALPA National isn't involved there. It is an issue between Delta's MEC and Comair/ASA MEC's.

ALPA is nothing more than a toolbox for each individual MEC to utilize. If an MEC chooses to be ineffective in its use of the toolbox, then shame on them, but to go blame National is fruitless. National is a bunch of cubicle staffers who handle the behind the scenes work, some lawyers and analysts, and a few national officers with far less power than one thinks.

The "class struggle" will end when the numbers change dramatically...which they have been doing over the past 5 years. Furthermore, it would be irresponsible of me to not point out that I genuinely believe that ALPA as a whole (MEC's, national, etc) is finally trying to do something right with the "RJ epidemic" albeit 10 years too late.

Sam

 

[Live4flyng]

Who the He11 is Express Jet? Another miserable start-up flying Brazilla's some poor passenger gets the displeasure of riding on?

Is this the same Teamster's union that accidently filed with the NMB to open Section 6 negotiations between Teamsters and CHQ a few days late, thus causing the negotiations to start 1 year later?

Didn't you just get done giving a lecture to Dash8 about how unions are made up of it's members, and not ALPO? Sounds to me like this was a failure of it's MEC.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Who the He11 is Express Jet? Another miserable start-up flying Brazilla's some poor passenger gets the displeasure of riding on?

Another mature post. www.expressjet.com ExpressJet Airlines does business as Continental Express, flying 228 jets (with another 46 on order) for Continental Airlines. We have 2500 pilots. Our revenue will be over $1.4 billion and pre-tax net income of well over $140 million. Flights from coast to coast and Canada to Mexico to the Bahamas. Hardly a "miserable start-up flying Brasilia's."

Didn't you just get done giving a lecture to Dash8 about how unions are made up of it's members, and not ALPO? Sounds to me like this was a failure of it's MEC.

Actually, this particular action would rest solely on the attorneys for the Teamsters and not on the individual MEC's NC. Blame could be placed on both parties but the representation department (professional lawyers/negotiators) deserve most of the blame.

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

Continental Express is the more widely known name!


Good Place to work if your in the left Seat! You guys definately pay your dues in the right seat! How much does your typical 5 year ERJ captain bring home in a year? Thanks!

 

[Sam Fisher]

Good Place to work if your in the left Seat! You guys definately pay your dues in the right seat! How much does your typical 5 year ERJ captain bring home in a year? Thanks!

Well the bulk of our captains are in their 6th-9th year right now, but a 5 year pilot on a contract that is already 15 months past its amendable date makes $58.08/hour. Assuming he flies 1000 hours per year, he'll make $58,000. However, a 5 year guy right now is on reserve and will make less than that and a 7 year guy holding a 90 hour line consistently will make somewhere around $65,000 or so. Our current contract negotiating process is almost over as we are discussing compensation now. I have no idea what we'll be making but I know it won't be less than Comair, which is around 14% ahead of us today and 18% ahead of us in June when Comair gets their next bump.

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

Thats about the kind of pay I expected >> Not far from what other Regional Captains are making!

Making that kind of Money and having a schedule would be nice >> even better if you live in your Domicile!

 

[Sam Fisher]

Thats about the kind of pay I expected >> Not far from what other Regional Captains are making!

Making that kind of Money and having a schedule would be nice >> even better if you live in your Domicile!

The pay will soon increase.

Average days off in EWR and IAH is around 14.5 and average days off in CLE is aroudn 13.7 these days, according to XJT Crew Planning. This is the lowest its been in 2 years, due to the enormous increase in block hours that we are flying. We will recall/hire several hundred in 2004. 200 in the first quarter alone.

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

How many of those EMB 145 Extended Range Airplanes do you have? Those are certainly the Wave of the Future in Airline Travel!

 

[Sam Fisher]

How many of those EMB 145 Extended Range Airplanes do you have? Those are certainly the Wave of the Future in Airline Travel!

I'm not 100% sure but I think it is somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 XR's - the one's with the winglets. Someone else might have the exact answer. We fly those as far as 1350 NM. Block times of 4+ hours aren't uncommon, especially in the winter. I can't say that I enjoy those flights and perhaps some of the passengers don't either, but I can say this: They do wonders for the productivity of our pairings and lines and they also allow someone to fly from EWR to OKC without connecting as well as CLE to SAT, etc. People might not like the plane but when time is money, it sure is nice to have a direct option.

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

Thats an Awful long time to sit in an airplane >> But that still beets having a layover!

Is the Pay higher on the EX airplanes?

I like the gate check baggage on the RJ's >> no hassle flying!

 

[Sam Fisher]

Thats an Awful long time to sit in an airplane >> But that still beets having a layover!

Is the Pay higher on the EX airplanes?

I like the gate check baggage on the RJ's >> no hassle flying!

No, the pay is the same. Still just 50 seats. We have 37 seat short jets and some pilots are paid less when they fly those.

Sam

 

[rajflyboy]

Even the smallest of RJ's is still more airplane than anything in corporate aviation >> Except maybe a Gulfstream or Global Express! More responsibility too! 50 People instead of a maximum of normally 10 or less!

 

[Lrjet55]

Holy crap you are friggin egotistical moron. Lemme explain sonsing to ju.

You actually think anyone is better because they fly more passengers and that gives them more responsibility? We need to take people like you out back and shoot them.

You fly a friggin regional jet from point A to point B and back every day all day long. A fuggin monkey can do that job. A 300 hour pilot can and does your job.

I am not bragging my job is any more difficult, which it is, but I certainly would'nt open that can of worms junior.

I cannot believe people today still try to make that argument.

Let me give you a small but significant example. Remember after 9-11 there was an American Airlines A-300 crash in Jamaica Queens, NY that killed everyone on board and several on the ground? That was a terrible accident, right?

Remember the Lear 35 that departed Orlando, Florida flew itself to altitude with Payne Stewart onboad finally crashing in a corn field in Nebraska?

Which one is still talked about today. Its sad to say that hardly anyone refers to that A-300 crash anymore. I am discusted that Payne Stewarts life is seemingly more news worthy or made to seem more important than 250 people that died on that airliner. My point is simple, we all have the same amount of responsibility. The even larger fact is this... If we crash our little "10 passenger or less" jet which doesn't require as much responsibility as that LARGE regional jet we could crumble a business or part of the economy. We fly people like George Bush Sr., Warren Buffet, Richard Hollbrook(embassidor to the united nations). Our less responsibility translates to higher profile. Do you think a high profile customer would be happy knowing there was a 300 hour wiz kid up there, I dont either.

 

[rajflyboy]

Dude >>> Its First Grade Math

It has nothing to do with EGO >> Its just a First Grade Math Problem!


Lets see 50-10 = 40

40 = the Amount of additional Responsiblity

Thats 40 more Wives,Husbands,Mothers,Fathers,Kids that will Sue your Company and Your Spouse!


Whats So difficult about that?

Everyone puts their pants on the same way in the morning >> I dont care if it is a CEO >> President of a Country or a Walmart Employee >> Each and every person we carry on an airplane is important and we are responsible for them!

 

[Live4flyng]

Its just a First Grade Math Problem!

Don't forget first grade fares+first grade profits, will always equal first grade pay.

Let's see,

2 PAX @ $16million VS. 50 PAX @ $123.00 a head. Did you finish 1st grade?

I am blown away that you think you have more responsibility than anyone else in avaitaion. We all know that the ERJ is nothing more than a stretched brazilia with jet engines, nothing special about it!

 

[Lrjet55]

Amen, another intelligent response.

 

[Sam Fisher]

We all know that the ERJ is nothing more than a stretched brazilia with jet engines, nothing special about it!

Another intelligent and mature post. Does that also mean that the Cessna Citation is nothing more than a big 310 with jets slapped on? C'mon, grow up. Not only are you wrong, but your posts indicate the maturity level of a baboon. Hopefully you are more of a professional in real life.

Sam

 

[Lrjet55]

He making a childish comparison. One along the line of larger airplane more responsibility.

 

[WileE]

Really raj?

Please. A 121 Captain can barely fart unless it's on the release. That's one of the reasons I left the regional biz. I like being a complete pilot, doing our own flight planning, weather evaluation and decision making for going to new airports all the time. It's fun and challenging. I'm sure a lot of captains at the airlines love having all those decisions taken from them, it's a heck of a lot easier just to check the results to be sure that all the blocks have been checked than to do it themselves. And yes I am well aware that when you have to make a 15 minute turn you obviously don't have time for all that, which is why the flights are so canned and so much resposibility for that stuff lies elsewhere.

By your logic raj, a captain on a cruise ship is so far above the level of even a widebody pilot that he or she should be worshipped as a god.

 

[VivaZapata]

Even the smallest of RJ's is still more airplane than anything in corporate aviation

"still more airplane...." God has spoken! All bow!

There are plenty of corporate airplanes that make RJ's look like a Barbie Fun Jet. I'd like to see you land "corporate" Beech 18 on ice in a crosswind with the cg at the aft limit.

If you're going to be arrogant, at least have something to be arrogant about.

Get over yourself kiddo.

 

[Lrjet55]

Its always been my experience that the poepl screaming bigger plane, more responsibility are the ones who have the least varied experience. If you cam from corporate with several type rating, military, etc the you can respectfully argue the poin many ways. These wiz kids who got hired straight out of a C-172 straight into an RJ or some commuter have zero experience to argue with. Flame is you must but I have experience to back it up.

 

[infoman]

Wow!

I thought this post was about "airlines vs fracts" ? Somehow it has turned into mines bigger , better ,or ??????

Fact .

We are all paid professionals. We sell our services to the company we work for.

Fact .

Most are unoin.

Fact.

Management, market forces, and pilots all play into the finale outcome of the package negotiated.

Fact.

No one flying job fits all. Everyone has thier own likes, and dislikes. This doesn't make one better than the other.

Fact.

Enough facts. It has been a long dry tour, and now I am home wetting the whislte.

To All!
Happy New Year!