Airline Mergers, scope and one list

[~~~^~~~]

Mergers, Scope and One List

When management comes to their pilots to resolve the items opened up by mergers, why not use this as an opportunity to establish more effective scope by bringing the wholly owned subsidiaries into one list?

The first operation that comes to mind is Compass, which is getting DC-9 replacements (under limits) with flow through and flow down rights to NWA.

In the past we have allowed our MEC's pursue policies that resulted in outsourcing, furloughs and expansion of non-union replacement airlines. We have an opportunity to do better. An opportunity involving all ALPA carriers.

At least as a table position, we need to have a scope section that reads:

"All airline flying will be performed by pilots on the airline's seniority list."​

I'm not saying the small jet operators have to go away or change anything other than Section 1. I'm simply advocating one list so that the mainlines' junior guys are protected while the small jet operators are given an opportunity to be on the team and reap the rewards of better career progression.

We all know the 100-140 seat market is just waiting on a suitable airplane to replace thousands of mainline jets. We also know management will continue to find ways around our convoluted scope blockades. Lets fix this now. It would be a positive result to the merger chaos and provide more career stability for ALPA members.

Ideas, comments, observations, anyone....

 

[General Lee]

When management comes to their pilots to resolve the items opened up by mergers, why not use this as an opportunity to establish more effective scope by bringing the wholly owned subsidiaries into one list?

The first operation that comes to mind is Compass, which is getting DC-9 replacements (under limits) with flow through and flow down rights to NWA.

In the past we have allowed our MEC's pursue policies that resulted in outsourcing, furloughs and expansion of non-union replacement airlines. We have an opportunity to do better. An opportunity involving all ALPA carriers.

At least as a table position, we need to have a scope section that reads:

"All airline flying will be performed by pilots on the airline's seniority list."​

I'm not saying the small jet operators have to go away or change anything other than Section 1. I'm simply advocating one list so that the mainlines' junior guys are protected while the small jet operators are given an opportunity to be on the team and reap the rewards of better career progression.

We all know the 100-140 seat market is just waiting on a suitable airplane to replace thousands of mainline jets. We also know management will continue to find ways around our convoluted scope blockades. Lets fix this now. It would be a positive result to the merger chaos and provide more career stability for ALPA members.

Ideas, comments, observations, anyone....

I like most ASA pilots and thank them for helping out our furloughed pilots after 9-11, but with guys like Johny Pennekamp and Jmoney on your list, we may have to rethink any "one list" talk..... Can we make one big list and another really small one?

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

General:

Important distinction, I wrote "Wholly Owned," which ASA isn't.

The unique opportunity is that you would have one bargaining agent (ALPA) negotiating with one management group. It is a chance to "take it back" for a seniority list.

SkyWest Airlines, Inc., is not part of that management group and ALPA has no standing, nor an open contract to bring them to the table.

There would still be outsourcing, but much less outsourcing. The direction and momentum of the battle would be changed in the union's favor.

 

[John Pennekamp]

General:

Important distinction, I wrote "Wholly Owned," which ASA isn't.

The unique opportunity is that you would have one bargaining agent (ALPA) negotiating with one management group. It is a chance to "take it back" for a seniority list.

SkyWest Airlines, Inc., is not part of that management group and ALPA has no standing, nor an open contract to bring them to the table.

There would still be outsourcing, but much less outsourcing. The direction and momentum of the battle would be changed in the union's favor.

I was about to welcome back the REAL fins until I read this. Turning your back on your ex fellow pilots?

Now your transformation to the Dark Side is complete, my young Anakin.

 

[~~~^~~~]

There is not a way to bring SkyWest to the table. Do you see a way around that?

I would like to see a requirement that pilots be a part of the union, but don't think that could be done here. As is, it will be interesting to see if there is any support for one list amongst even the wholly owneds.

Besides, don't you know your Star Wars history? I'd have to hook up with Princess Amidala and ... nevermind a big black car just pulled into the driveway and Natalie Portman jumped out....

 

[John Pennekamp]

I like most ASA pilots and thank them for helping out our furloughed pilots after 9-11, but with guys like Johny Pennekamp and Jmoney on your list, we may have to rethink any "one list" talk..... Can we make one big list and another really small one?

Bye Bye--General Lee

Blah, blah, blah, General. Don'cha think the feeling is mutual?

WINDCHECK!

ps, As a voting member of the MEC that voted to welcome your furloughees to ASA with their Delta seniority intact, YOU'RE WELCOME, JACKASS!

 

[John Pennekamp]

There is not a way to bring SkyWest to the table. Do you see a way around that?

Easily. Delta assimilated ASA's non union rampers and gate agents in June, even though SkyWest owned us. The same thing could be done for DCI pilots.

Delta announces it's taking back all of the RJs and the contracted flying. Then the DCI pilots get to interview to fly them at Delta. We get date of hire at Delta for bidding purposes, and 1/2 ASA seniority for everything else. Just like the rampers did.

It's very simple, really.

 

[~~~^~~~]

We get date of hire at Delta for bidding purposes, and 1/2 ASA seniority for everything else. Just like the rampers did.

It's very simple, really.

Well, that helps. Thanks.

Think I'll duck out now that the crap will really start flying around the primate cages...

 

[General Lee]

Blah, blah, blah, General. Don'cha think the feeling is mutual?

WINDCHECK!

ps, As a voting member of the MEC that voted to welcome your furloughees to ASA with their Delta seniority intact, YOU'RE WELCOME, JACKASS!

Hey, we have hired a bunch of your pilots (like Fins) and you have moved up your seniority list (while your airline is shrinking). You are welcome too!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Easily. Delta assimilated ASA's non union rampers and gate agents in June, even though SkyWest owned us. The same thing could be done for DCI pilots.

Delta announces it's taking back all of the RJs and the contracted flying. Then the DCI pilots get to interview to fly them at Delta. We get date of hire at Delta for bidding purposes, and 1/2 ASA seniority for everything else. Just like the rampers did.

It's very simple, really.

It's not gonna happen, and our wholly owned isn't our favorite group on the block. And DOH for bidding purposes? Huh? Quit dreaming. You and Jmoney can get that arrangement for the LAV dumping job opening up soon in Flint.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

... our wholly owned isn't our favorite group on the block. Bye Bye--General Lee

and I think that is probably the reason why there would be little political support for One List, despite the very real, compelling, benefits.

Besides, if you dislike the Comair MEC, I can think of one way to make it.... vanish. One list means one MEC. You get the votes and the power.

Do you agree that management is going to try to outsource the next generation 100 seater? If you do, isn't this a valid first step to fix it now?

 

[John Pennekamp]

I meant DOH at Delta. Not DOH integration. As in 1/17/08 if it happened today. All of the ASA rampers have a hire date of 6/1/07 for bidding purposes.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Hey, we have hired a bunch of your pilots (like Fins) and you have moved up your seniority list (while your airline is shrinking). You are welcome too!


Bye Bye--General Lee

ASA is shrinking! Damn, they've been lying to us! No wonder we have all of those layoffs. Oh wait, we haven't had any... Oh and we haven't lost any airplanes either...

*JP scratches head...*

 

[~~~^~~~]

Date of Aquisition. That would probably be acceptable.

The real first step is trying to figure out the objections of legacy pilots to this type of scenario. I'm still not clear why after all the furloughs and outsourcing the legacy pilots are not screaming for any opportunity to take it back.

As far as ASA not "losing" airplanes - don't tell me that. I lost my 700 slot when SkyWest transferred our orders and several of the aircraft allocated to the SLC flying. Within the week I updated the ol' resume and scheduled my FedEx grip-n-grin. The ASA MEC did a great job with the hand they had to work with, but it did come at some cost to the status quo fleet wise. 19 orders and 7 of the 700's; 26 jets by my count

 

[General Lee]

and I think that is probably the reason why there would be little political support for One List, despite the very real, compelling, benefits.

Besides, if you dislike the Comair MEC, I can think of one way to make it.... vanish. One list means one MEC. You get the votes and the power.

Do you agree that management is going to try to outsource the next generation 100 seater? If you do, isn't this a valid first step to fix it now?

Unless there is a BK judge in the backround, I highly doubt a 100 seater or anything larger than a 76 seater will be outsourced. And remember, guys like Pennekcamp and Lawson think they are entitled to DOH at Delta. Riiiiight. Never.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

ASA is shrinking! Damn, they've been lying to us! No wonder we have all of those layoffs. Oh wait, we haven't had any... Oh and we haven't lost any airplanes either...

*JP scratches head...*

You haven't had any layoffs because people are leaving in droves. Your company can't even keep up with attrition.

737

 

[General Lee]

ASA is shrinking! Damn, they've been lying to us! No wonder we have all of those layoffs. Oh wait, we haven't had any... Oh and we haven't lost any airplanes either...

*JP scratches head...*

People have been bailing so fast, it doesn't seem like it. Any replacements for those AT7s going away later this year? Has St George given you any large orders? You may get some CR9s, but so is Freedom Air.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[John Pennekamp]

Unless there is a BK judge in the backround, I highly doubt a 100 seater or anything larger than a 76 seater will be outsourced. And remember, guys like Pennekcamp and Lawson think they are entitled to DOH at Delta. Riiiiight. Never.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, do you have a reading and comprehension, problem? I never asked for ASA DOH at Delta.

That would be your buddy Fins who used to be a huge RJ advocate and RJDC supporter. In fact, he's the man who personally introduced me to Dan Ford. I'll never forget it. I told Dan to his face that while I agreed with his ideas of inclusive scope, I thought the $$$ and DOH aspect of the lawsuit was a bad idea and distracted too much from the real issue.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You haven't had any layoffs because people are leaving in droves. Your company can't even keep up with attrition.

737

That's actually not true. I was just corrected on this yesterday, in fact. Apparently our attrition is back below 30 per month and we're fully staffed. We're again hiring more per month than are leaving. Lots of line cuts because of Delta messing with the flying, but that happens every January and will pick back up in a month or so.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Unless there is a BK judge in the backround, I highly doubt a 100 seater or anything larger than a 76 seater will be outsourced. And remember, guys like Pennekcamp and Lawson think they are entitled to DOH at Delta. Never.

Bye Bye--General Lee

(1) We need stronger language than "I highly doubt a 100 seater... will be outsourced." We need to solidify scope and start the line going in the other direction. The best way to do this is to forget flow throughs and make it one list.

(2) He clarified "Date of Acquisition." Lets not get the whole DOH thing going again.

General, the manufacturers of the next generation 100 to 150 seater are aiming at seat mile costs below the current benchmark, the 757. It is a threat that we have an opportunity to fix if this comes to pass. At the same time we will improve ALPA's standing and the career progression for pilots who follow us.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That would be your buddy Fins who used to be a ...RJDC supporter. In fact, he's the man who personally introduced me to Dan Ford. I'll never forget it. I told Dan to his face that while I agreed with his ideas of inclusive scope, I thought the $$$ and DOH aspect of the lawsuit was a bad idea and distracted too much from the real issue.

There no truth to the DOH allegation. Dan Ford's position was that integration had been accomplished on the basis of paycheck and equipment type. By either benchmark we were talking a staple. I joked about printing "We'd be grateful for a staple" stickers. I was asked not to because it was seen as a violation of ALPA protocol. However, politically, I wish I had printed the stickers just to ease the concerns of the Delta pilots.

The results of the failed PID have not been good for ALPA members and resulted in the unnecessary furlough of Delta pilots.

I'd like you to retract what you posted - DOH just isn't true.

As evidenced by this thread, I still support an effort to create a more inclusive union that results in stronger scope and rationalizes our career progression.

 

[John Pennekamp]

There no truth to the DOH allegation. Dan Ford's position was that integration had been accomplished on the basis of paycheck and equipment type. By either benchmark we were talking a staple. I joked about printing "We'd be grateful for a staple" stickers.

I'd like you to retract what you posted.

I knew I could lure the old Fins out. Glad to have you back.

 

[skyhooky]

Easily. Delta assimilated ASA's non union rampers and gate agents in June, even though SkyWest owned us. The same thing could be done for DCI pilots.

Delta announces it's taking back all of the RJs and the contracted flying. Then the DCI pilots get to interview to fly them at Delta. We get date of hire at Delta for bidding purposes, and 1/2 ASA seniority for everything else. Just like the rampers did.

It's very simple, really.

John,

What do you mean by "1/2 ASA seniority for everything else"? Just curious.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Good thread Fins.....

While I doubt this can be achieved at this point, let me ask you about the "DOH"/Staple/"DOA"....

I am going to credit 106 hours next month on a nap line....I am going to have my pick of schedules.... I am going to make well over 100K.... Are there any protections for me and others who didn't feel the need to follow you down Virginia Ave....

Again, it is probably purely an academic arguement at this point, but what are your thoughts?

 

[PCL_128]

This thread is representative of the problems we continue to have in this profession. Fins has just proposed something that every mainline pilot with a half a brain should latch on to, and the General starts talking about JC Lawson and jmoney. General, haven't you been paying attention for nearly two decades now? I don't care how much you hate JC and other regional pilots, this outsourcing is destroying your beloved Delta and your profession. Any opportunity to eliminate it and bring the flying under one ALPA umbrella should be embraced enthusiastically. These childish fights about JC's mistakes or Dan Ford's idiocy have got to be put in the past. The RJDC lawsuit is over. JC has been deposed. Time to look ahead and fix the problems that are tearing this profession apart.

Fins, good posts.

 

[John Pennekamp]

John,

What do you mean by "1/2 ASA seniority for everything else"? Just curious.

The ASA rampers and gate agents were given their new DOH for bidding and travel purposes, and 1/2 of their ASA seniority for pay grade, vacation, and other benefits. So if they had 10 years at ASA, they went into Delta at the 5 year pay scale. But they still bid like they were new hires.

 

[John Pennekamp]

This thread is representative of the problems we continue to have in this profession. Fins has just proposed something that every mainline pilot with a half a brain should latch on to, and the General starts talking about JC Lawson and jmoney. General, haven't you been paying attention for nearly two decades now? I don't care how much you hate JC and other regional pilots, this outsourcing is destroying your beloved Delta and your profession. Any opportunity to eliminate it and bring the flying under one ALPA umbrella should be embraced enthusiastically. These childish fights about JC's mistakes or Dan Ford's idiocy have got to be put in the past. The RJDC lawsuit is over. JC has been deposed. Time to look ahead and fix the problems that are tearing this profession apart.

Fins, good posts.

A-fricking-men!

While I fully understand that General's stuff here is meant only to get a rise out of people, too many mainline pilots actually feel that way.

Instead of trying to turn back the clock, and hating the players, they need to redefine the rules of the game.

Prater talks about "Takin' it Back". How about building bridges instead of higher walls and getting all pilots within a brand on the same seniority list? The era of bankruptcy that divided us is over. Now that the era of mergers is here how about taking this opportunity to unite us? Management came up with a brilliant game plan of dividing the "regional" pilots against the "mainline" pilots. And why we've been infighting, they have been robbing the store.

DALPA and the NWA MEC have laid down the gauntlet with their "conditions" for approval of a merger. They seem to think they hold the trump card. How about doing it right this time instead of repeating the mistakes of the 90s when scope was given up?

Take back the RJ flying and assimilate the pilots. Or spend another 10 years watching MANAGEMENT give your flying away to the lowest bidder. The ball is in your court.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Good thread Fins.....

While I doubt this can be achieved at this point, let me ask you about the "DOH"/Staple/"DOA"....

I think it is up to the pilots' representatives once the decision is made to merge.

I have a very strong conviction about getting pilots together on the same list. Once one list is accomplished, the fences and job protections would require careful analysis based on future fleet plans, staffing models and information that isn't available to me. The first step is the most important. The next step will fall in line using the tools, creativity and the intelligence of those who serve as our representatives.

The answer would likely be some combination of a brand seniority list, with bidding rights, but very limited displacement rights. Your concern about flow down possibly could be answered by letting the date of acquisition concept swing both ways.

Even now the airlines are hiring - a flow up is a much more likely probability. For those that decided not to bid into larger equipment they could enjoy more rapid seniority progression on the equipment of their choice.

In the past there was more than sufficient hiring at the small jet operators to absorb all the mainline furloughs. Going forward, all indications are the growth is going to be airframes in the 100+ seat range.

To me, these are details which risk diverting attention from the basic mission our union needs to be focused on - bringing pilots together, making scope stronger and providing rational career progression for our those in our profession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To me, these are details which risk diverting attention from the basic mission our union needs to be focused on - bringing pilots together, making scope stronger and providing rational career progression for our those in our profession.

This of course is going to take leadership....

Leadership from the elected officers and leadership from each member...

That is right... leadership from each member...

So far... the members just want to play the blame game....

What talk about how the members can be leaders?