Airline Mergers, scope and one list

[737 Pylt]

ASA is shrinking! Damn, they've been lying to us! No wonder we have all of those layoffs. Oh wait, we haven't had any... Oh and we haven't lost any airplanes either...

*JP scratches head...*

You haven't had any layoffs because people are leaving in droves. Your company can't even keep up with attrition.

737

 

[General Lee]

ASA is shrinking! Damn, they've been lying to us! No wonder we have all of those layoffs. Oh wait, we haven't had any... Oh and we haven't lost any airplanes either...

*JP scratches head...*

People have been bailing so fast, it doesn't seem like it. Any replacements for those AT7s going away later this year? Has St George given you any large orders? You may get some CR9s, but so is Freedom Air.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[John Pennekamp]

Unless there is a BK judge in the backround, I highly doubt a 100 seater or anything larger than a 76 seater will be outsourced. And remember, guys like Pennekcamp and Lawson think they are entitled to DOH at Delta. Riiiiight. Never.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, do you have a reading and comprehension, problem? I never asked for ASA DOH at Delta.

That would be your buddy Fins who used to be a huge RJ advocate and RJDC supporter. In fact, he's the man who personally introduced me to Dan Ford. I'll never forget it. I told Dan to his face that while I agreed with his ideas of inclusive scope, I thought the $$$ and DOH aspect of the lawsuit was a bad idea and distracted too much from the real issue.

 

[John Pennekamp]

You haven't had any layoffs because people are leaving in droves. Your company can't even keep up with attrition.

737

That's actually not true. I was just corrected on this yesterday, in fact. Apparently our attrition is back below 30 per month and we're fully staffed. We're again hiring more per month than are leaving. Lots of line cuts because of Delta messing with the flying, but that happens every January and will pick back up in a month or so.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Unless there is a BK judge in the backround, I highly doubt a 100 seater or anything larger than a 76 seater will be outsourced. And remember, guys like Pennekcamp and Lawson think they are entitled to DOH at Delta. Never.

Bye Bye--General Lee

(1) We need stronger language than "I highly doubt a 100 seater... will be outsourced." We need to solidify scope and start the line going in the other direction. The best way to do this is to forget flow throughs and make it one list.

(2) He clarified "Date of Acquisition." Lets not get the whole DOH thing going again.

General, the manufacturers of the next generation 100 to 150 seater are aiming at seat mile costs below the current benchmark, the 757. It is a threat that we have an opportunity to fix if this comes to pass. At the same time we will improve ALPA's standing and the career progression for pilots who follow us.

 

[~~~^~~~]

That would be your buddy Fins who used to be a ...RJDC supporter. In fact, he's the man who personally introduced me to Dan Ford. I'll never forget it. I told Dan to his face that while I agreed with his ideas of inclusive scope, I thought the $$$ and DOH aspect of the lawsuit was a bad idea and distracted too much from the real issue.

There no truth to the DOH allegation. Dan Ford's position was that integration had been accomplished on the basis of paycheck and equipment type. By either benchmark we were talking a staple. I joked about printing "We'd be grateful for a staple" stickers. I was asked not to because it was seen as a violation of ALPA protocol. However, politically, I wish I had printed the stickers just to ease the concerns of the Delta pilots.

The results of the failed PID have not been good for ALPA members and resulted in the unnecessary furlough of Delta pilots.

I'd like you to retract what you posted - DOH just isn't true.

As evidenced by this thread, I still support an effort to create a more inclusive union that results in stronger scope and rationalizes our career progression.

 

[John Pennekamp]

There no truth to the DOH allegation. Dan Ford's position was that integration had been accomplished on the basis of paycheck and equipment type. By either benchmark we were talking a staple. I joked about printing "We'd be grateful for a staple" stickers.

I'd like you to retract what you posted.

I knew I could lure the old Fins out. Glad to have you back.

 

[skyhooky]

Easily. Delta assimilated ASA's non union rampers and gate agents in June, even though SkyWest owned us. The same thing could be done for DCI pilots.

Delta announces it's taking back all of the RJs and the contracted flying. Then the DCI pilots get to interview to fly them at Delta. We get date of hire at Delta for bidding purposes, and 1/2 ASA seniority for everything else. Just like the rampers did.

It's very simple, really.

John,

What do you mean by "1/2 ASA seniority for everything else"? Just curious.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Good thread Fins.....

While I doubt this can be achieved at this point, let me ask you about the "DOH"/Staple/"DOA"....

I am going to credit 106 hours next month on a nap line....I am going to have my pick of schedules.... I am going to make well over 100K.... Are there any protections for me and others who didn't feel the need to follow you down Virginia Ave....

Again, it is probably purely an academic arguement at this point, but what are your thoughts?

 

[PCL_128]

This thread is representative of the problems we continue to have in this profession. Fins has just proposed something that every mainline pilot with a half a brain should latch on to, and the General starts talking about JC Lawson and jmoney. General, haven't you been paying attention for nearly two decades now? I don't care how much you hate JC and other regional pilots, this outsourcing is destroying your beloved Delta and your profession. Any opportunity to eliminate it and bring the flying under one ALPA umbrella should be embraced enthusiastically. These childish fights about JC's mistakes or Dan Ford's idiocy have got to be put in the past. The RJDC lawsuit is over. JC has been deposed. Time to look ahead and fix the problems that are tearing this profession apart.

Fins, good posts.

 

[John Pennekamp]

John,

What do you mean by "1/2 ASA seniority for everything else"? Just curious.

The ASA rampers and gate agents were given their new DOH for bidding and travel purposes, and 1/2 of their ASA seniority for pay grade, vacation, and other benefits. So if they had 10 years at ASA, they went into Delta at the 5 year pay scale. But they still bid like they were new hires.

 

[John Pennekamp]

This thread is representative of the problems we continue to have in this profession. Fins has just proposed something that every mainline pilot with a half a brain should latch on to, and the General starts talking about JC Lawson and jmoney. General, haven't you been paying attention for nearly two decades now? I don't care how much you hate JC and other regional pilots, this outsourcing is destroying your beloved Delta and your profession. Any opportunity to eliminate it and bring the flying under one ALPA umbrella should be embraced enthusiastically. These childish fights about JC's mistakes or Dan Ford's idiocy have got to be put in the past. The RJDC lawsuit is over. JC has been deposed. Time to look ahead and fix the problems that are tearing this profession apart.

Fins, good posts.

A-fricking-men!

While I fully understand that General's stuff here is meant only to get a rise out of people, too many mainline pilots actually feel that way.

Instead of trying to turn back the clock, and hating the players, they need to redefine the rules of the game.

Prater talks about "Takin' it Back". How about building bridges instead of higher walls and getting all pilots within a brand on the same seniority list? The era of bankruptcy that divided us is over. Now that the era of mergers is here how about taking this opportunity to unite us? Management came up with a brilliant game plan of dividing the "regional" pilots against the "mainline" pilots. And why we've been infighting, they have been robbing the store.

DALPA and the NWA MEC have laid down the gauntlet with their "conditions" for approval of a merger. They seem to think they hold the trump card. How about doing it right this time instead of repeating the mistakes of the 90s when scope was given up?

Take back the RJ flying and assimilate the pilots. Or spend another 10 years watching MANAGEMENT give your flying away to the lowest bidder. The ball is in your court.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Good thread Fins.....

While I doubt this can be achieved at this point, let me ask you about the "DOH"/Staple/"DOA"....

I think it is up to the pilots' representatives once the decision is made to merge.

I have a very strong conviction about getting pilots together on the same list. Once one list is accomplished, the fences and job protections would require careful analysis based on future fleet plans, staffing models and information that isn't available to me. The first step is the most important. The next step will fall in line using the tools, creativity and the intelligence of those who serve as our representatives.

The answer would likely be some combination of a brand seniority list, with bidding rights, but very limited displacement rights. Your concern about flow down possibly could be answered by letting the date of acquisition concept swing both ways.

Even now the airlines are hiring - a flow up is a much more likely probability. For those that decided not to bid into larger equipment they could enjoy more rapid seniority progression on the equipment of their choice.

In the past there was more than sufficient hiring at the small jet operators to absorb all the mainline furloughs. Going forward, all indications are the growth is going to be airframes in the 100+ seat range.

To me, these are details which risk diverting attention from the basic mission our union needs to be focused on - bringing pilots together, making scope stronger and providing rational career progression for our those in our profession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To me, these are details which risk diverting attention from the basic mission our union needs to be focused on - bringing pilots together, making scope stronger and providing rational career progression for our those in our profession.

This of course is going to take leadership....

Leadership from the elected officers and leadership from each member...

That is right... leadership from each member...

So far... the members just want to play the blame game....

What talk about how the members can be leaders?