Aircraft has slid off runway at MDW

[P-Dawg_QX]

Yep, no doubt about it. The flight crew will almost certaily be defending themselves in a Wrongful Death Civil trial as well as a possible criminal trial. Although the latter is less likely, the former will happen.

In a civil suit, it won't be the pilots...it'll be the company. Gotta go after the deep pockets, remember?

 

[FN FAL]

In a civil suit, it won't be the pilots...it'll be the company. Gotta go after the deep pockets, remember?

When those corp pilots pounded that three holer with 19 on board into the side of the mountain on that ski trip a few years ago, the captain's estate was part of the setlement.

 

[smails]

Any 737 drivers out there know the factored landing distance for the conditions?

 

[ultrarunner]

Why is the LATTER less likely? The latter is usually the forerunner to a wrongful death suit.

In a criminal case a prosecuter would have to show "intent". In a civil case, the burden of proof shits.

I'll have to do some research, but I can't recall a recent case where non-intoxicated, living pilots have been criminally prosecuted, post-accident.

Can anyone site a case off hand?

Interesting to say the least.

 

[ultrarunner]

Any 737 drivers out there know the factored landing distance for the conditions?

Can't wait to see the Mu value. Anyone got it?

Then run the factored landing distance. It's gonna be scary, I'm telling ya.

 

[FN FAL]

The intent is formed in the "ignore a 'substantial and unjustifiable risk'"..."and whose acts constitute a 'gross deviation' from the reasonble person's standard of care..."

Section 1105 defines the offense of negligent homicide.

Although the criminal law generally considers recklessness the minimum​

culpability level for which liability is appropriate, Section 1105 departs
from that usual standard in recognition that the harm involved — the death

of a human being — is much graver than those punished by other offenses.33

Section 1105 imposes liability on those who ignore a "substantial and
unjustifiable risk" of causing death and whose acts, constituting a "gross
deviation" from the reasonable person’s standard of care, kill another person.
See proposed Section 206(4) (defining negligence).


​

​

Relation to current Illinois law.​

Section 1105(1) has no corresponding
provision in current Chapter 720, which does not include a negligent
homicide offense. The proposed Code joins the overwhelming majority of
jurisdictions that have enacted modern criminal codes by imposing liability
for negligent homicide. See MODEL PENAL CODE § 210.4

(defining negligent
homicide offense); id. cmt. n.30 (noting that of 34 states with revised codes
as of 1980, all but 5 codes include negligent homicide offense).
Section 1105(2) grades the offense as a Class 4 felony
​

​

 

[ultrarunner]

The intent is formed in the "a 'substantial and unjustifiable risk'"..."and whose acts constitute a 'gross deviation' from the reasonble person's standard of care..."

However, while the snow hasn't settled yet, it will be interesting to see if the jury will view this landing attempt as an unjustifiable risking, when evidence will show that two others landed in the preceeding 13 minutes.

 

[FN FAL]

However, while the snow hasn't settled yet, it will be interesting to see if the jury will view this landing attempt as an unjustifiable risking, when evidence will show that two others landed in the preceeding 13 minutes.

So if millions of people get away with drunk driving every weekend, I can convince a jury that I should be let go for DUI because if it?

Hmmmm, interesting comment, but here's what I think.

Somwhere along the line in Illinois, some poor schmuck got charged with negligent homicide and was convicted, simply because he changed lanes without looking over his shoulder and caused a death in a car "accident".

He wound up with a 1 year suspended sentence and a felony conviction in his record. Also, let's just say for hypotheticals, that this guy was a colored person. And don't forget, this IS Illinois.

So this guy sees some important news story where someone else was killed in a "negligent homicide" type "accident", but the prosecutors said, "you boys go on now, you got white shirts and epaulets!"

Do you think that the colored person's attorney is going to let this "discrimination" go unoticed because nice boys were flying a plane and planes are pretty?

 

[millhouse21]

Really, what happens when an airfield that meets FAA mins, but the PIC decides that he wants to takes his 100 or so passengers some where else? Does some burley hitman get dispatched from management to off your ass? Do you get labeled a MILF, and get recurrent training?

Only at Trans States.

 

[ultrarunner]

So if millions of people get away with drunk driving every weekend, I can convince a jury that I should be let go for DUI because if it?

No, what I'm saying is that it's "likely" the previous two flight crews that landed immediately prior were given the same information the accident crew received.

Given that, would a reasonable person conclude the accident crew disregarded "substantial and unjustifiable risk" at the time they began the approach?

That could be the question. Or, it could be as simple as touching down halfway down the runway and they just ran out of room...in which case the 737 is exactly where it should be.

time will tell.

 

[FN FAL]

No, what I'm saying is that it's "likely" the previous two flight crews that landed immediately prior were given the same information the accident crew received.

Given that, would a reasonable person conclude the accident crew disregarded "substantial and unjustifiable risk" at the time they began the approach?

That could be the question. Or, it could be as simple as touching down halfway down the runway and they just ran out of room...in which case the 737 is exactly where it should be.

time will tell.

In any case, a homicide is defined by most state statutes as a death that was from unatural causes. From the moment of the childs death, this case became a homicide investigation.

You're right, maybe there won't be any charges...I'm just telling you about criminal process and the state law of illinois. To say what a prosecutor will or wont do is not for me. They may have a law in Illinois that says all homicides must at least go to a grand jury before they will "no bill".

Keep in mind, I'm not a lawyer. However, criminal prosecution for negligent crimes, even those without obvious "intent" is all the rage.

I have done papers in college on "overcriminalization". Seems that people were asleep at the wheel when these negligence laws got passed...now there are no such things as "accidents" just "unsafe acts".

Good luck to the crew, passengers, the injred and others that were there today.

 

[ultrarunner]

In any case, a homicide is defined by most state statutes as a death that was from unatural causes. From the moment of the childs death, this case became a homicide investigation.

You're right, maybe there won't be any charges...I'm just telling you about criminal process and the state law of illinois. To say what a prosecutor will or wont do is not for me. They may have a law in Illinois that says all homicides must at least go to a grand jury before they will "no bill".

Keep in mind, I'm not a lawyer. However, criminal prosecution for negligent crimes, even those without obvious "intent" is all the rage.

I have done papers in college on "overcriminalization". Seems that people were asleep at the wheel when these negligence laws got passed...now there are no such things as "accidents" just "unsafe acts".

Good luck to the crew, passengers, the injred and others that were there today.

Excellent points and insight FN FAL. I appreciate the response. Given IL law, this could be very interesting.

It's not often pilots face criminal prosecution.

 

[SiuDude]

Seems that people were asleep at the wheel when these negligence laws got passed...

Literraly.:laugh:

 

[atrdriver]

In any case, a homicide is defined by most state statutes as a death that was from unatural causes. From the moment of the childs death, this case became a homicide investigation.

So if I go jump off a bridge onto rocks, since that is most certainly a death from "unnatural causes", it would become a homicide investigation? And what about a 1 car accident where someone ran into a bridge abutment? The police and the prosecutors decide whether a death of any kind is going to be investigated as a homicide. If the pilots are shown by the NTSB to have acted in a reasonable and prudent manner a prosecutor would be an idiot to try to prosecute them for anything, let alone any type of murder.

 

[PCL_128]

To the best of my knowledge, no air line pilot has ever been prosecuted in any state in the country as a result of a death in an accident or incident. In fact, I don't believe there have been any succesful civil cases against air line pilots after accidents either.

 

[satpak77]

lots of FI lawyers

I didn't realize how many FI-ers had law degrees, and specialized in criminal defense....



To prosecute for a criminal violation, two things must exist

MENS REA - the mental state of the violator and his intention

ACTUS REAS - the actual action itself

BOTH must exist for a prosecution (or should I say a successful prosecution)

Example

Joe, aware that his car has an exhaust leak, asks his ex-girlfriend to go with him to the store. He enters the store and tells her to stay inside, knowing she will be dead in 15 minutes. She dies and Joe gets prosecuted, because he has intent (he wanted to kill her) and he completed the action (he physically got her into the car and told her to remain in the car). Joe would not have been prosecuted if one of these elements did not exist.

Larry, is headed to the store in his beat up jalopy, his only car available, and his baby needs formula, so he has no choice. His neighbor, Cindy, would like to go the store and she joins him. Upon arrival, Cindy asks him to buy some milk and she will stay in the car and listen to her song on the radio. Unfortunately, an exhaust leak kills Cindy. Larry is not prosecuted since no intent exists nor criminal action to carry out the intent.

I am 105% sure the flight crew did not intend to kill anybody, and the "action" itself was an accident and not of an intended proactive effort to carry out criminal action.

end of story

Civil lawsuits are an entire different animal as is FAA penalties and fines

But there is nothing criminal here

IL homicide definition

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs4.asp?DocName=072000050HArt%2E+9&ActID=1876&ChapAct=720%26nbsp%3BILCS%26nbsp%3B5%2F&ChapterID=53&ChapterName=CRIMINAL+OFFENSES&SectionID=29493&SeqStart=10800&SeqEnd=11700&ActName=Criminal+Code+of+1961%2E

 

[polysciguy9]

Check out the news video on msnbc ... they have a simulation!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10388519/

Click on the video link that shows the nose of the 737 ... they couldn't resist showing flames trailing the plane as it skids down the runway ... unfreakin' believable. Can anyone say Jetblue skit on SNL?

 

[jbDC9]

shes uses promade for style.

She's a Dapper Dan man.

 

[ren]

Only at Trans States.

You're 100% correct. Trans States threatens with the "death penalty".

 

[Going2Baja]

It is surprising to me the "General" forum has almost no flames, jokes, or inapropriate posts. Oh the other hand if you look at the post of the same subject in the "Majors" board there are tons of inapropriate posts.

Here is a copy of my post there - hopefully we can help out the family that lost thier child in this horible accident!
=========================================================
My family's hearts and prayers go out to the families of the injured and dead. It amazes me that some here make light of this situation. Most, if not all here give up many holidays and special events to work and provide for our wives/husbands and especially our little ones. Yesterday someone lost their child in a tragedy that NONE of us know the cause. Stop and think for a second if you were that child’s family, or even the family of one of the SWA pilots. There lives have changed forever in a split second. The holiday season/spirit may be gone forever for these individuals. And here some of you sit and make light. For any of you (E120ASA, Hoke) I hope for your sake you don't have kids and that you guys are Sky Gods, because the Karma train is headed your way and that is one bullet you just can't get out of the way of!

To Admin or moderators: Another board (non-aviation) I belong to from time to time, when the situation warrants, takes a collection and delivers it to special people in need. If the family of the child can be determined and you are willing to, I'd like to donate to a Christmas fund for this family. After all funds are collected a check in the name of Flightinfo.com could be sent to this family. We have two weeks to get this together if you would so choose.

Prayers to all those involved.

Baja