Oh, here we go......
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Air Tran Help Please
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Tripower455
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lol....
You see it your way, we see it our way. No need to dredge it up again. It's over.
Tripower455
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The fact that you have folks that think that "no Southwest pilot was harmed" in this debacle is the reason that the forum posts should've been left up for you to see.
Do you really think anything good could come from that? All it would do is reignite the fire. That's the worst possible thing that could happen just as AirTran pilots start to show up. From what I hear, everyone in Dallas has been very welcoming to our pilots going through training right now. That's the best way to handle things. Having our pilots read through a bunch of old forum posts that talk about how your pilots believe they were harmed by the integration would not be productive.
Kharma Police
Don't mess with Texas
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I'm sorry, I wish we could've given up more. You guys got hosed big time.
Tripower455
Well-known member
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This type of thinking is exactly why I believe the forum shouldn't have been "sanitized".
I believe it would've been beneficial for all of us for you guys to see our side of it, as it was happening.
Kharma Police
Don't mess with Texas
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I would gladly pay for my polyester pants and shirts as well as parking to make things right.
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DonVerita
Well-known member
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- Aug 24, 2002
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- 575
With your Forum sanitized, it looks like we'll never get to see your side. So...do tell. Tell us how you were harmed. Put your harm up against our harm of:
32-35% Global Seniority loss
Loss of all 737 Capt. seats (and possibly all 717 Capt. seats if a/c sold)
Unable to re-upgrade for 7-10 years
B-scale pay rates till 2015
Retirement of 11.5% cut to 9.3%
I'm sure many other people besides me are sincerely and honestly interested in seeing what you put up to support your claim.
Best regards.
Tripower455
Well-known member
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Most of the folks here on FI are lost causes, and I am not hashing it all out again here. As a WN guy, anything I say (on any subject) will be met with derision, as it has been for years.
This is the reason I was against the forum scrub. Once you have access, you could've read what we had to say in the context of the time that they were written. For the same reason, I wish we could have access to your forums.
Maybe it is for the better.....
Lear70
JAFFO
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- Oct 17, 2003
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- 7,487
One of the things leaving all that up would do is keep the argument alive for years. Every time a new class gained access it would remind them of all they lost.
You may not agree with our view of our losses, but you can't change our minds. Your perspective MIGHT temper our views, but you won't change them. That's just the way human nature works. Even this is getting acrimonious again. Our view isn't changing. Neither is yours. Just the way it is.
As such, its probably better to let the wounds heal without every new class dredging it all back up.
Just my .02 cents.
You may not agree with our view of our losses, but you can't change our minds. Your perspective MIGHT temper our views, but you won't change them. That's just the way human nature works. Even this is getting acrimonious again. Our view isn't changing. Neither is yours. Just the way it is.
As such, its probably better to let the wounds heal without every new class dredging it all back up.
Just my .02 cents.
Tripower455
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Maybe you're right. Tempering your view is exactly what I was driving at. I guess I was giving you guys too much credit.
You'd think after nearly 27 years in the business I'd know better.
Mea Culpa.
Sorry for your "loss"..... I know that being bought by WN was something that you would never have wished for. I can't imagine what you're going through!
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humveedriver
M1165A1
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Anyway...
Bigger fish to fry now. The money for uniforms was a nice gesture. They could have sought relief from that like they did with our 18 month integration clause. I really thought that was industry standard, but if it is not, then good for us. It's a good point about "who's" contract we are working for and going to be working for. For now there is a master ISL with two contracts. Looking forward to when it is one. Rather than seeing parking and uniform costs addressed in section 6, I would like to see the 737 type requirement go away. That would be a little meaningful to the pocket book. At this point it's more or less a hazing ritual for employment.
Bigger fish to fry now. The money for uniforms was a nice gesture. They could have sought relief from that like they did with our 18 month integration clause. I really thought that was industry standard, but if it is not, then good for us. It's a good point about "who's" contract we are working for and going to be working for. For now there is a master ISL with two contracts. Looking forward to when it is one. Rather than seeing parking and uniform costs addressed in section 6, I would like to see the 737 type requirement go away. That would be a little meaningful to the pocket book. At this point it's more or less a hazing ritual for employment.
Tripower455
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I totally agree about the type requirement, and always have. It serves no purpose, and we've lost out on hiring a lot of great pilots over the years due to it.
DonVerita
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Madjack...this is what I'm talking about. We don't think that you guys fully understand the immense harm that was done to our side.
The "first deal" still had us losing the same amount of global seniority as the second deal. It was this slap in the face that the MEC found to be unacceptable. That's why they voted it down. If it had been straight DOH, the MEC would have accepted it because that would have been "fair & equitable"; which is what both sides agreed to. Anything less than that shows the arrogance of one side who thinks that they are better than the other rather than saying we are all equals under the same SWA banner.
We have heard a lot of talk about the Golden Rule and One LUV. The actions of this SLI tell a polar opposite story.
The "first deal" still had us losing the same amount of global seniority as the second deal. It was this slap in the face that the MEC found to be unacceptable. That's why they voted it down. If it had been straight DOH, the MEC would have accepted it because that would have been "fair & equitable"; which is what both sides agreed to. Anything less than that shows the arrogance of one side who thinks that they are better than the other rather than saying we are all equals under the same SWA banner.
We have heard a lot of talk about the Golden Rule and One LUV. The actions of this SLI tell a polar opposite story.
Just thinking
Well-known member
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SWA will still get the majority of Captain seats and laugh all the way to the bank.... FAT pilots will have a small amount of the 737 International Captain seats that make it to 2015 as long as the IT department can't figure out how to program the international side of things as well as the code share.... along with dispatching past "HERB" time etc. etc.....
SWA will divest itself of the 717's to Delta on a schedule that will coincide with the FAT pilots transitioning over at a rate that will provide the RSW pilots the upgrade opportunity. ALL TRANSITIONING FAT PILOTS WILL BE FO'S.
Low and behold when 2015 rolls around there won't be any more upgrades for the next couple of years regardless of where your global seniority is for the FAT pilots..... GK has carefully crafted this with SWAPA and has shown them how "no harm" will come to RSW pilots.
FAT pilots will have lost 30% seniority, 75% of the Captain seats and if/when the junior RSW pilots get the recall rights for the bases they were displaced from, the FAT pilots are ensured of cross country commutes to Oakland and Vegas.....
Feeling the LUV???????
SWA will divest itself of the 717's to Delta on a schedule that will coincide with the FAT pilots transitioning over at a rate that will provide the RSW pilots the upgrade opportunity. ALL TRANSITIONING FAT PILOTS WILL BE FO'S.
Low and behold when 2015 rolls around there won't be any more upgrades for the next couple of years regardless of where your global seniority is for the FAT pilots..... GK has carefully crafted this with SWAPA and has shown them how "no harm" will come to RSW pilots.
FAT pilots will have lost 30% seniority, 75% of the Captain seats and if/when the junior RSW pilots get the recall rights for the bases they were displaced from, the FAT pilots are ensured of cross country commutes to Oakland and Vegas.....
Feeling the LUV???????
TahoeBoarder
Member
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- Oct 16, 2006
- Posts
- 16
Wow--where to begin?
I'll try to keep this factual since your emotions are still running a little high.
I don't see how you think you will be "ensured of cross country commutes to OAK & LAS". Your bottom guy pre-acquisition now has 385 FOs below him--the vast majority from SWA hiring since. That's a lot more FO's than either of those bases currently have.
What scenario would force a cross country commute to the AirTran side? Any displacements will happen to the junior SWA side.
I'll try to keep this factual since your emotions are still running a little high.
I don't see how you think you will be "ensured of cross country commutes to OAK & LAS". Your bottom guy pre-acquisition now has 385 FOs below him--the vast majority from SWA hiring since. That's a lot more FO's than either of those bases currently have.
What scenario would force a cross country commute to the AirTran side? Any displacements will happen to the junior SWA side.
Feeling the LUV???????
...under SL9 the AAI CPs would have been seat protected for 10 years, ALL AAI pilots would have received SWA pay immediately... the company did offer a better deal in the first round and your MEC elected to say no thanks...wouldn't even let you vote on it...the rest is history...
[http://forums.flightinfo.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2290193
...under SL9 the AAI CPs would have been seat protected for 10 years, ALL AAI pilots would have received SWA pay immediately... the company did offer a better deal in the first round and your MEC elected to say no thanks...wouldn't even let you vote on it...the rest is history...
[http://forums.flightinfo.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2290193
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humveedriver
M1165A1
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2004
- Posts
- 1,005
We also have folks who will want to bid those bases and DEN/PHX due to their geographic locations/current commuters. The biggest issue right now is a lack of clear direction from SWA regarding the transition. They simply don't have the answers yet. This is of particular concern for those folks who live in ATL.
redflyer65
Well-known member
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- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
So Don, your saying the job at Airtran was equal to the job at Southwest when the acquisition was announced so therefore DOH should have been a slam dunk?
Whine Lover
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2005
- Posts
- 1,497
"32-35% Global Seniority loss
Loss of all 737 Capt. seats (and possibly all 717 Capt. seats if a/c sold)
Unable to re-upgrade for 7-10 years
B-scale pay rates till 2015
Retirement of 11.5% cut to 9.3%"
All thanks to the AirTran MEC.
MadJack is correct...Place the blame where it truly lies.
This will be another case of " UsAmerarrhea " ( Prescription: Take 20 Immodium and call us in 20 years. We still wont care. ) for decades to come.
You will ALL, collectively, CONTINUE to defecate upon each other in perpetuity.
A GREAT airline and a KrAp airline ....Now, all molded into one Lump Of Sheisse.
Yay. (?) ANOTHER WIN for the Office J-Off's that hoped you would put yourselves here. PERFECT.
Good luck to all....who so excellently, and efficiently, effed' this up.....Almost, as IF....BY Design.
( Insert Mad Laughter Here )
Love,
Me
Loss of all 737 Capt. seats (and possibly all 717 Capt. seats if a/c sold)
Unable to re-upgrade for 7-10 years
B-scale pay rates till 2015
Retirement of 11.5% cut to 9.3%"
All thanks to the AirTran MEC.
MadJack is correct...Place the blame where it truly lies.
This will be another case of " UsAmerarrhea " ( Prescription: Take 20 Immodium and call us in 20 years. We still wont care. ) for decades to come.
You will ALL, collectively, CONTINUE to defecate upon each other in perpetuity.
A GREAT airline and a KrAp airline ....Now, all molded into one Lump Of Sheisse.
Yay. (?) ANOTHER WIN for the Office J-Off's that hoped you would put yourselves here. PERFECT.
Good luck to all....who so excellently, and efficiently, effed' this up.....Almost, as IF....BY Design.
( Insert Mad Laughter Here )
Love,
Me
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Whine Lover
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2005
- Posts
- 1,497
You have a valid point. We will see. I think there will be a SWA ATL base. They are just going to draw down the AT base, then with in a year or two after 2015 it open again.
Yes but keep captain seats for ten years. Then put in the retirements, no AT captain would of lost there seat. Blame your MEC. They just got out negotiated. Just saying.
But the good thing is we are taking care of the AT people now in training. This company is so different than yours. Give it a chance.
He didn't say relative, he said DOH. Under a DOH integration, your pilots would have received a bump in relative seniority, and our pilots would have lost relative seniority. How are you calling that "equal?"
outerlimits
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2011
- Posts
- 486
Wow, so you feel getting DOH, you where getting less than you deserve ?
You worked for a regional airline , just like me.
redflyer65
Well-known member
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- Jan 1, 2004
- Posts
- 4,456
Let's just say our views differ and move forward, just exactly as you stated here before. I let myself get sucked back in by some of the comments on here. It's done, over and behind us. As Lear stated too, one person's view of fair is going to be different from someone else's and there really won't be any changing of minds at this point.
Carry on..
"one person's view of fair is going to be different from someone else's and there really won't be any changing of minds at this point."
Truer words have never been spoken...
I would feel the same way (as many AAI piots feel) if my company was bought by a bigger company: I would have wanted rel sen/DOH, it would be stupid not to want that, I would feel cheated if I did not get recognition for the career I had built at AAI...AAI pilots did not ask for this merger (and neither did SWA pilots), but life is not fair....SWA had the advantage and used it, what do you expect?...I was lucky to be on the SWA side... I understand the angst felt by the AAI pilots who "lost" seniority...but AAI seniority was going away as soon as the acquisition was announced...the future is in the SL10 MSL...nothing I can do about it...OBTW I would have voted yes for SL9 (after vomiting)...
Truer words have never been spoken...
I would feel the same way (as many AAI piots feel) if my company was bought by a bigger company: I would have wanted rel sen/DOH, it would be stupid not to want that, I would feel cheated if I did not get recognition for the career I had built at AAI...AAI pilots did not ask for this merger (and neither did SWA pilots), but life is not fair....SWA had the advantage and used it, what do you expect?...I was lucky to be on the SWA side... I understand the angst felt by the AAI pilots who "lost" seniority...but AAI seniority was going away as soon as the acquisition was announced...the future is in the SL10 MSL...nothing I can do about it...OBTW I would have voted yes for SL9 (after vomiting)...
+1
especially for the vomit.
Hey I just started to walk straight, so the doctor took my stitches out!
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