Air Tran Bid: Is it closed? Results?

[Ty Webb]

It is hard to feel for people who now complain about things that they once prayed for. For years many AAI pilots wanted to be bought by a company that would not treat them like crap and would not have to walk the picket line on. Now that reality is here, it is interesting to see people see the hardship in thier prayers coming true.

No disagreement here.

I am glad, however, that it was SWA and not Skywest (or Republic!), which I was afraid might happen. Now, THAT would have really sucked, and I try to remember that, while this isn't perfect, things could have worked out a whole lot worse.

 

[Captain Fulough]

No disagreement here.

I am glad, however, that it was SWA and not Skywest (or Republic!), which I was afraid might happen. Now, THAT would have really sucked, and I try to remember that, while this isn't perfect, things could have worked out a whole lot worse.

One of your better posts Ty. :beer:

 

[scoreboardII]

The 717 pilots will transfer to the B Scale Southwest contract before the vast majority in 2013. They will have the same health starting in 12 days and be under the same SWAPA contract (B Scale) well before you. You're not even close in 2012 and 2013 has a big "?" next to it.

.

So are the AT guys who come over with higher pay (longevity bump) for their seniority position on an A plus scale?

No.

Neither is there a SWAPA B scale for those on the 717, it's the AT pay scale that fades out as the transition is made, grow up.

 

[Lear70]

For us not in the know, what do you mean about the training plans ?

The training plan does several things that surprised people. First, and foremost, they're taking more planes than pilots initially, and using most of the year to transition many people over to the 717 on the AirTran side of the partition. (only 168 pilots TOTAL will transition to SWA next year and they're taking 22 planes out of service by mid-Dec 2012).

Secondly, that will trigger a reduction in flying (and therefore, pay), on the AirTran side sooner than was expected. Most people will be close to guarantee by the end of 2012. (I'm thankful we were able to get an increase in guarantee negotiated into the agreement).

Lastly, it appears to draw out the transition longer and leave the 737's on the AirTran side longer, operating more international flying using code-share to connect SWA passengers to AirTran international flying. It's rumored that there's hiccups in the new reservations system that are pushing that delay, but it means a much slower transition for the 737 pilots (except MCO and MKE pilots since they're eliminating that 737 flying in 2012).

So, in essence, many people bid 737 because they heard those planes were going first and wanted to get to SWA and your TFP rates sooner than later. Unfortunately, it looks like that will be significantly delayed for ATL-based 737 pilots, by up to a year in some cases over what was previously anticipated and discussed.

Just a bit of a shock for those expecting a faster transition of our 737 pilots to SWA... Surprised me, too.

 

[dicko]

So are the AT guys who come over with higher pay (longevity bump) for their seniority position on an A plus scale?

No.

Neither is there a SWAPA B scale for those on the 717, it's the AT pay scale that fades out as the transition is made, grow up.

Dear Mr Vader,

It's a B Scale, and it's a SWAPA B Scale. It's in the SWAPA contract and it's a lower payrate that only affects (former AirTran) SWAPA 717 pilots. I'll grow up and you can be man enough to 'call a spade a spade'.

You should be concerned that there is a B Scale at your airline. You've been around long enough to know when the camels nose is under the tent.

 

[jball2]

I would say its not a b scale until you have two pilots flying the same aircraft at the same airline for different rates of pay. Under the current situation, the only way that will happen is if NO AirTran guys chose to upgrade to 717 CA prior to 2015 leaving a vacancy to RSW pilots. The odds of having a RSW captain on a 717 are virtually nill until 2015. After 2015, the pays rate is at parity.

 

[SWA Bubba]

The training plan does several things that surprised people. First, and foremost, they're taking more planes than pilots initially, and using most of the year to transition many people over to the 717 on the AirTran side of the partition. (only 168 pilots TOTAL will transition to SWA next year and they're taking 22 planes out of service by mid-Dec 2012).

Secondly, that will trigger a reduction in flying (and therefore, pay), on the AirTran side sooner than was expected. Most people will be close to guarantee by the end of 2012. (I'm thankful we were able to get an increase in guarantee negotiated into the agreement).

Lastly, it appears to draw out the transition longer and leave the 737's on the AirTran side longer, operating more international flying using code-share to connect SWA passengers to AirTran international flying. It's rumored that there's hiccups in the new reservations system that are pushing that delay, but it means a much slower transition for the 737 pilots (except MCO and MKE pilots since they're eliminating that 737 flying in 2012).

So, in essence, many people bid 737 because they heard those planes were going first and wanted to get to SWA and your TFP rates sooner than later. Unfortunately, it looks like that will be significantly delayed for ATL-based 737 pilots, by up to a year in some cases over what was previously anticipated and discussed.

Just a bit of a shock for those expecting a faster transition of our 737 pilots to SWA... Surprised me, too.

Actually, this is somewhat of a surprise and shock to pilots on the Southwest side as well. We too, were expecting the 737s to come over first; in fact I'm almost sure that at one point, I read that the first 717 wasn't transistioning until sometime in 2013. Now it's almost backwards. Everyone over here was anticipating that, because it's the 737 transitions that help SWA guys: Airtran 737 guys coming over with planes trigger upgrades and upward movement for SWA guys. Plus, Airtran-to-737 guys would get under our pay scale sooner. I suppose that's as close to a win-win as possible under our agreement. Not a putdown, but it seems that the transitioning of the 717s first doesn't help the paychecks of either pilot group.

In addition to the rumored problems with the new reservation system that Lear reported (slowing 737 transistion to SWA for int'l travel), I wonder if saving money in salary isn't at least partially responsible. Southwest 717s bringing in SWA revenue (while paying Airtran salaries) would seem to help the company's bottom line. Obviously some 737s are coming over in 2012, but not at the speed and ratio that we all thought. Looks like GK is trying to save a buck or two here as well.

Bubba

 

[texman]

I knew this was going to happen.

 

[wood pecker]

Any speculation on how many will bypass class? All info prior to the closing said 717 guys going over SW 73 in late 2012 - 2013. Hopefully a few (30 or more) want to stay on 717 a little longer.

 

[OK3]

You can never go wrong blaming the IT department at SWA. I am sure it has to do with International reservation system. Sorry guys, we were hoping for more 737 transitions sooner too.

 

[Lear70]

Actually, this is somewhat of a surprise and shock to pilots on the Southwest side as well. We too, were expecting the 737s to come over first; in fact I'm almost sure that at one point, I read that the first 717 wasn't transistioning until sometime in 2013. Now it's almost backwards. Everyone over here was anticipating that, because it's the 737 transitions that help SWA guys: Airtran 737 guys coming over with planes trigger upgrades and upward movement for SWA guys. Plus, Airtran-to-737 guys would get under our pay scale sooner. I suppose that's as close to a win-win as possible under our agreement. Not a putdown, but it seems that the transitioning of the 717s first doesn't help the paychecks of either pilot group.

Well, to be clear, the 717's are not coming over to Southwest in 2012. However, with them pulling more 737 PLANES out of AirTran in 2012 and sending them to Southwest than they are pulling PILOTS and sending them to Southwest, SWA pilots will still get upwards of 20 737's (with 2 in progress) by the end of December, 2012, and only 168 AirTran F/O's will transition.

Pulling fewer pilots than planes on a pure staffing ratio basis frees up AirTran pilots to transition to the 717. The plan is to have almost all (if not ALL) of the 717 training events done in 2012. Then, starting in 2013, with the pilots already in position in their final crew positions, the 717's will start coming over.

At that point, it appears that the 737's will stop coming to Southwest, at least at the same pace they were in 2012, and that the international flying will continue to grow at AirTran with those remaining pilots and planes, while the 717's are sent over to Southwest.

In addition to the rumored problems with the new reservation system that Lear reported (slowing 737 transistion to SWA for int'l travel), I wonder if saving money in salary isn't at least partially responsible. Southwest 717s bringing in SWA revenue (while paying Airtran salaries) would seem to help the company's bottom line. Obviously some 737s are coming over in 2012, but not at the speed and ratio that we all thought. Looks like GK is trying to save a buck or two here as well.

Bubba

You said it. I didn't.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well, to be clear, the 717's are not coming over to Southwest in 2012. However, with them pulling more 737 PLANES out of AirTran in 2012 and sending them to Southwest than they are pulling PILOTS and sending them to Southwest, SWA pilots will still get upwards of 20 737's (with 2 in progress) by the end of December, 2012, and only 168 AirTran F/O's will transition.

Pulling fewer pilots than planes on a pure staffing ratio basis frees up AirTran pilots to transition to the 717. The plan is to have almost all (if not ALL) of the 717 training events done in 2012. Then, starting in 2013, with the pilots already in position in their final crew positions, the 717's will start coming over.

At that point, it appears that the 737's will stop coming to Southwest, at least at the same pace they were in 2012, and that the international flying will continue to grow at AirTran with those remaining pilots and planes, while the 717's are sent over to Southwest.

Well, there you go.

That's what I get for trying to understand the memo. It makes sense that you have to train pilots for the different positions that they'll have during and after the transistion. However, reading the training plan makes it less clear. In the memo's 'flow chart,' the red blocks (717) have the label, "Airtran to Southwest 717 Conversion Training" (emphasis added) with all the stuff happening on the chart starting in Feb 2012. That certainly gives the impression that "Airtran to Southwest 717 Conversion" includes Airtran aircraft converting to Southwest.

Also, in the Q & A section, one of the answers included, "...because the 717 conversion will be complete prior to the last 737 conversion...," clearly referring to aircraft, which further leads the amateur line pilot sleuth to believe that 717s are coming sooner than anticipated. I guess you union guys get all the good memos. Back to lurking in the dark for me...

Bubba

 

[Lear70]

The 717's WILL, in all likelihood, be done prior to the last 737, as far as aircraft are concerned. However, you're still getting 20 737's next year, then in Jan 2013 the 717's will start being moved to Southwest with the pilots, while the rest of the 737's that are still at AirTran at the beginning of 2013 will stay there and keep flying at AirTran, for at least the bulk of 2013 before they start moving over.

All subject to change, of course, 2013 and 2014 are still pretty dynamic from what we're being told, nothing is set in stone yet.

 

[Skyboy722]

The 717's WILL, in all likelihood, be done prior to the last 737, as far as aircraft are concerned. However, you're still getting 20 737's next year, then in Jan 2013 the 717's will start being moved to Southwest with the pilots, while the rest of the 737's that are still at AirTran at the beginning of 2013 will stay there and keep flying at AirTran, for at least the bulk of 2013 before they start moving over.

All subject to change, of course, 2013 and 2014 are still pretty dynamic from what we're being told, nothing is set in stone yet.

I'm really glad you guys understand this stuff. I'm still cleaning up the mess from when my head exploded.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

Nice essay. Your plan was sound based upon what you were told.

The 717 pilots will transfer to the B Scale Southwest contract before the vast majority in 2013. They will have the same health starting in 12 days and be under the same SWAPA contract (B Scale) well before you. You're not even close in 2012 and 2013 has a big "?" next to it.

Look at your seniority and then look at the transition schedule. You'll be flying an AirTran 737 while the 717 guys transfer to the SWAPA B Scale. SWA 737 went junior for a reason.

I'd offer you some lubricant, but it seems you've bought your own. Glove up.

Seriously guys, lets move on. Dicko, you know damn well that you were offered pay parity, but your reps turned it down. I feel badly that they so grossly misrepresented you, but blame them not the guys here.

 

[ATLplt]

Secondly, that will trigger a reduction in flying (and therefore, pay), on the AirTran side sooner than was expected. Most people will be close to guarantee by the end of 2012. (I'm thankful we were able to get an increase in guarantee negotiated into the agreement).

The increased guarantee is a joke compared to what we'll lose from where we are now. This deal just keeps getting better. I'll be lucky to make what I made this year in 2012. Merry Christmas to all of us. Here's a lump of coal and a kick in the nuts.

 

[scoreboardII]

Dear Mr Vader,

It's a B Scale, and it's a SWAPA B Scale. It's in the SWAPA contract and it's a lower payrate that only affects (former AirTran) SWAPA 717 pilots. I'll grow up and you can be man enough to 'call a spade a spade'.

You should be concerned that there is a B Scale at your airline. You've been around long enough to know when the camels nose is under the tent.

Read post #86, thats why it's not B scale.

 

[Crash Pad]

I just read post 86. Lets just say that they put a new hire on the 717 before 2015. How about this... what is it when a guy with two years at a company is paid more than say a five year guy at the same company? It's a B-scale.

Enjoy your boosted B-scale profit sharing check. Chuckle at the list. Call us trash when we taxi by. Please don't ever call us equals... it's an insult to everyone involved.

 

[Lear70]

The increased guarantee is a joke compared to what we'll lose from where we are now. This deal just keeps getting better. I'll be lucky to make what I made this year in 2012. Merry Christmas to all of us. Here's a lump of coal and a kick in the nuts.

You've never heard any of us, myself included, call this "a good deal". What you HAVE heard us say is "this was the ONLY deal".

We got as much as we could get (which translates to as much as they were willing to give) with zero leverage and next to zero negotiating power once the MEC told Southwest "We will put whatever comes back out for vote."

So I'm glad we were able to negotiate an increase in guarantee. I brought it up and harped on it once I saw the projected LVI's, Jack and Frank ran with it, and we got it. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. I truly wish we could have done more...

 

[Whataburger]

Newsflash

it's
done.

it's
done.

it's
done.

it's
done.

it's
done.

for fkuc sake
it's
done!​