Air midwest crashes into hangar @ CLT??

[Singlecoil]

Average bag weights.

Does anybody know if Air Midwest uses average or actual bag weights? Its probably average as that is a lot more convenient for the company to deal with.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has been overloaded in the baggage compartment even though on paper it was all legit.

Sometimes (right after Christmas) a disproportionate amount of people show up with heavy bags.

It sure is funny that a passenger won't get charged an excess baggage fee as long as the bag is under 70 pounds, yet when it is loaded on the aircraft it is counted as 30 or 35 pounds depending on company policy.

 

[jetdriven]

AMW uses estimated weights. 170 lbs for pax and 25 for bags. 50 for "large bags" or military duffles. We use an index method for W+B with numbers seated fore and aft. I have flown them a few times right at max gross and at the aft limit and I tell you it flies just fine. This airplane has no surpirses.

Friend of mine is a 1900D sim instructor. Thery could not get the aircraft to get to 52 degrees ANU even with max gross weight 17,120 and CG 12" aft of rear limit. It would stall first every time at about 40-45 degrees.

the only way to get it that high was to accelerate to 160-175 KIAS real low to the ground and then use FULL UP ELEVATOR AND HOLD IT until the plane reached the attitude right as it stalls, even the it would still recover and fly out of it.

Something major happened I bet.

 

[surfnole]

More details from MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.com/news/856493.asp?0cv=CB10&cp1=1

Goglia revealed Thursday that the Beech 1900D twin-engine turboprop was loaded so heavily that ramp workers asked the captain whether they should remove some of its baggage. The plane took off only after she decided not to remove any bags, which Goglia said left the plane within 100 pounds of its maximum permissible weight.

I don't fly professionally....but what is the implication with this statement? That a plane under gross weight is dangerous?

PILOTS DESCRIBED AS EXPERIENCED - US Airways said Leslie, 25, and First Officer Jonathan Gibbs, 26, both of Charlotte, were experienced aviators, with 1,800 hours and 700-plus hours, respectively, flying Beech 1900-series aircraft

What would they have flown before flying the 1900?

 

[ultrarunner]

Not sure, but I suspect she was a cfi and went into the 1900 as an FO then upgraded. He's was prly hired right into the FO seat from small piston planes.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

AMW uses estimated weights. 170 lbs for pax and 25 for bags. 50 for "large bags" or military duffles. We use an index method for W+B with numbers seated fore and aft. I have flown them a few times right at max gross and at the aft limit and I tell you it flies just fine. This airplane has no surpirses.

Friend of mine is a 1900D sim instructor. Thery could not get the aircraft to get to 52 degrees ANU even with max gross weight 17,120 and CG 12" aft of rear limit. It would stall first every time at about 40-45 degrees.

the only way to get it that high was to accelerate to 160-175 KIAS real low to the ground and then use FULL UP ELEVATOR AND HOLD IT until the plane reached the attitude right as it stalls, even the it would still recover and fly out of it.

Something major happened I bet.

Indeed. I agree with your post 100%. I have just over 1500 hrs in the flying pig. How did it get that name? Remember Beech said "how many things can we stick to a King Air to make it as ugly as possible?" and the rest is history. I still think the Beech is one of the coolest looking and flying turboprops out there. Many times it has been said "only in a beech".

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Mesa Pilots Mourn

Mesa Pilots Mourn

Crew of Flight 5481

The Mesa Air pilots are mourning the loss of two of their ALPA family who were killed January 8, on Air Midwest Flight 5481 in Charlotte, N.C. Capt. Katie Leslie and First Officer Jonathan Gibbs died in the crash in which the 19 passengers aboard the Beech 1900D also lost their lives.

“Our sincerest condolences go out to the family and friends of Katie and Jonathan,” said Mesa MEC chairman, Capt. Andy Hughes. “The crew of Flight 5481 represents the best of this pilot group — young, vibrant, skilled professional aviators who were passionate about their flying and dedicated to their jobs. They are truly missed and will remain in our thoughts and our prayers.”

ALPA is participating in the National Transportation Safety Board accident investigation. A full ALPA “Go-Team,” which includes trained pilot accident investigation volunteers and staff from ALPA’s Engineering and Air Safety Department, was deployed to Charlotte on January 8. ALPA will continue to take part in the entire investigation process.

Fraternally Yours,

Captain Andrew J. Hughes

MES MEC Chairman

 

[tothelineplz]

To ALL pilots:

Focusing on the "experience" level of the crew (particularly as measured in hours) at this point is an outrage! Jumping to conclusions based upon that criteria (or any other) is wrong. Period. I realize there are thousands of "arm chair go-teamers" out there but, how can you pilots complain about the press' callous conclusion drawing and turn around and come up with your own causes? Is that based upon your extensive experience in accident investigation or are you just rebutting the latest press report you read or hear to get in your "2 cents" as an aviation expert. Please. I urge everyone to back off, pay your respects and mourn this tragedy; then bring closure. Everyone has their own ideas on this accident, but let the investigators and representatives of Air Midwest and other agencies do their work. Then, and only then, we as a pilot community can look at what happened as it relates to pilot duties and responsibilities and implement innovative solutions and preventative if they are indicated.

That is the standard procedure, folks.

 

[trainerjet]

To ALL pilots:

Focusing on the "experience" level of the crew (particularly as measured in hours) at this point is an outrage! Jumping to conclusions based upon that criteria (or any other) is wrong. Period. I realize there are thousands of "arm chair go-teamers" out there but, how can you pilots complain about the press' callous conclusion drawing and turn around and come up with your own causes? Is that based upon your extensive experience in accident investigation or are you just rebutting the latest press report you read or hear to get in your "2 cents" as an aviation expert. Please. I urge everyone to back off, pay your respects and mourn this tragedy; then bring closure. Everyone has their own ideas on this accident, but let the investigators and representatives of Air Midwest and other agencies do their work. Then, and only then, we as a pilot community can look at what happened as it relates to pilot duties and responsibilities and implement innovative solutions and preventative if they are indicated.

That is the standard procedure, folks.

Might I suggest you practice what you preach?

This horrible accident obviously was NOT CAUSED by pilot error. Mechanical "failure" is apparent when one considers the eyewitness accounts and reviews the maintenance records.

The recent Air Midwest mishap infuriates me because this accident was PREVENTABLE. It was not a "freak" accident.

These quotes suggest that you have done your own "arm-chair" investigation and have determined the probable cause. Was this based upon your extensive experience in accident investigation, or were you merely joining the rest of the conclusion jumping pilots in getting in your "2-cents"?

 

[tothelineplz]

I'm referring to specualative opinion put forth by the pilot community, respecting the fact they are also aviation professionals. Press coverage infuriates me as well, my friend. Just use some discretion. LOOK and LISTEN, then do your research. Then, apply your background, experience and training.

Well-thought out speculative opinions are warranted. They filter out the smoke and provide a preliminary lesson for all. The "focus" of the investigation is NOT on pilot experience, powerplant abnormalities, etc. Finally, I suspect that 100 pounds in the 1900 would not equal 52 degrees unless the bag was tied to an imaginary rod extending straight out from the tail.

Therefore, given my background, training and experience, and the statements to the press from the investigators supports my speculation that this accident has nothing to do with 100 pounds or a bad cooker. Perhaps you should spend less time pointing out your perceived inconsistencies and critical analysis of my postings and think of ways you can do your job better and safer.

That is all.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Actually, that's NOT all

Sorry, totheline, you were stone cold busted by trainerjet, and your indignant response doesn't even come close to covering it up.

Why, exactly, are you talking down from on-high, your morally unassailable position as you probably see it, and telling other people not to come to their own conclusions when you are clearly doing the same?

"Perhaps you should spend less time pointing out your perceived inconsistencies and critical analysis of my postings and think of ways you can do your job better and safer"

LOL This is great stuff. Since you are "retired from aviation", perhaps you feel singularly qualified to tell the rest of us how we should comport ourselves? Sorry, pal, I do my job well, I do my job safely, and I don't have any qualms in freely speculating on what happened in CLT. Part of doing my job well is trying not to repeat the mistakes others have made... and finding out what those mistakes are, be they pilot error, mechanical failure, casting a suspicious eye at the baggage loaders, or WHATEVER, is part of it. This exchange of ideas is not hurting anyone, is not disgracing the memory of the flight crew and passengers, is not pointing fingers without cause, and certainly is not a forum you should feel it necessary to police. I am mystified how you have come to the conclusion that trainerjet, or myself, or anyone else posting on this thread is keeping us from "think(ing) of ways (we) can do (our) job better and safer."

Please spare us (and trainerjet) anymore of your misplaced, sanctimonious blather.

That is all. (*rolling eyes*)

 

[flx757]

While some of you speculate, then bicker about who's background, training and experience makes their speculation more credible; my background, training and experience, along with my personal relationship with a real-life "go-teamer" has taught me that speculation is pointless.

The bottom line is the "focus" of this investigation, as in every investigation, covers ALL areas. Everything is considered, and every possibility is systematically eliminated before the probable cause is determined.

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly some of you can accomplish this process.

 

[tothelineplz]

Amazing...

I'm not going to argue with anyone on this because there's no argument to it. You choose to "speculate freely" much as you pee, I presume. Says enough for me to tune you out.

Rgarding "focus" of the investigation. At first it does cover ALL. Then, just as you say, the focus narrows as probable causes are ruled out. At this point, I would rule out the fact that crew experience (from a stick and rudder standpoint) can be. This accident happened well before crossing any hold short line.

P.S. I used to roll my eyes at others when I disagreed, but then I started playing poker.

 

[Fitzy]

flx757-

Took the words out of my beek. This shi7 could happen to anyone of us. Some of us Pilots think our experience and skill overrule everyone else---and we-they are right!!!! hehe


Speculation is only a natural response, especially to our job. It is torture not knowing how this waste of life and airplane could have been prevented. I have 3500 hours of se Alaska time with way too many horror stories---- All could have been prevented.

The wannabe Pilots that post stupid and rude comments on this thread would be shaking like a little 8 yr old girl in any abnormal situation.

 

[tothelineplz]

Possible problems with tail parts and aircraft weight continued to dominate the investigation

Investigators found the control cables that run from the plane's tail to the cockpit and determined they had not broken due to corrosion or missing bolts.

One possibility they are considering is whether cables could have slipped off pulleys after maintenance work on the tail Monday night.

If the cables gradually worked their way into a snag, they could have jammed on takeoff.

"If it goes 1,000 pounds over, it doesn't mean you're going to crash," said John Goglia, leader of the National Transportation Safety Board probe.

Shifting weight was not a major concern, he said, because the plane's cargo compartment was jampacked.

The NTSB held its last briefing Friday in Charlotte and now will spend months poring over evidence.

Investigators also are in Huntington, W.Va., to interview mechanics who adjusted the tension of cables that run from the plane's elevator -- a movable control surface on the tail -- to the cockpit.

The NTSB will examine paperwork and compare it with the mechanic interviews. "Those folks are under the microscope," said Goglia.

The data recorder of Flight 5481 shows that during the next eight flights after the repairs Monday, the elevators moved in ways "inconsistent" with what investigators would expect.

The NTSB is not ruling out the possibility that a bad sensor on the data recorder failed to capture the movements accurately.



(from the Atlanta-Journal Constitution)

 

[trainerjet]

I. P., Fitzy, et.al.,

Some pilots are obviously just more knowledgeable than we are. What can you do?


Flx757,

Well said.