Air France 447 Found

[Lear70]

After a certain amount of jet experience (certainly by the time you get to a "major" airline), approximate Thrust Lever Angle and approximate pitch attitude +/- a degree or so should be fairly instinctive for any regime of flight.

That's why I like Boeing products. I know where they are moving when my hands are resting on them and if I don't like where they're trending, I just override them. Do it all the time on gusty approaches when she starts chasing airspeed, it's more by feel than anything else, and it works well.

Then again, I have almost zero tolerance for the "children of the magenta" who can't do the above without thinking about it, similar to the kind of people Sinkrate referred to above. I like automation, I really do, but I like knowing exactly WHY the airplane is doing what it's doing, see it happening with normal TACTILE feedback, and override it simply by disallowing or overriding the throttles and/or yoke position, regardless of what some d*mn computer (fifi) *thinks* it should be doing.

99.9% of the time, a good Airman is smarter than the computer. If you think otherwise, you probably shouldn't be flying planes. /rant

 

[say again]

Do auto-throttles take some of the fun of actually flying the a/c? I actually enjoy the hands on part of flying.

 

[bubbers44]

I almost never used the AT or autopilot unless it was required by the approach minimums. It takes you out of the loop and makes you a monitor instead of the pilot flying. It is so much easier to just hand fly the approach if wind shear or turbulence upsets your aircraft. I was flying an MD80 into New Orleans one day and it was close to minimums in moderate turbulence so coupled it up and at 500 ft the bells came on, we were in a bank, and I had no idea where the last throttle setting was as everything disconnected in the clouds so reintercepted the ILS and landed. It would have been so much easier to hand fly the approach then go through a recovery at 500 ft in the clouds. Once I got out of the MD80 to the 757 I started trusting the autopilot systems more.

 

[Jar Jar]

Do auto-throttles take some of the fun of actually flying the a/c? I actually enjoy the hands on part of flying.

Yes.

But they can also be a huge advantage, like a go around in LGA where you're gonna be level at 2k, having the throttles managed can really help to free some braincells for turns/checklists/traffic.

 

[eaglesview]

That's why I like Boeing products. I know where they are moving when my hands are resting on them and if I don't like where they're trending, I just override them. Do it all the time on gusty approaches when she starts chasing airspeed, it's more by feel than anything else, and it works well.

Then again, I have almost zero tolerance for the "children of the magenta" who can't do the above without thinking about it, similar to the kind of people Sinkrate referred to above. I like automation, I really do, but I like knowing exactly WHY the airplane is doing what it's doing, see it happening with normal TACTILE feedback, and override it simply by disallowing or overriding the throttles and/or yoke position, regardless of what some d*mn computer (fifi) *thinks* it should be doing.

99.9% of the time, a good Airman is smarter than the computer. If you think otherwise, you probably shouldn't be flying planes. /rant

I agree with most of your post however, as an Airbus guy, I am wondering if you are overriding the auto throttles anyway, why are they on. To achieve that feel you are referring to, and rightfully so, I just turn the autopilot/throttles off.

You ALWAYS know what fifi is thinking, it's just a different way of doing business. Instead of looking/feeling what the throttles are doing you look at the FMA's which is handy since that's also where the info on what the auto pilot is thinking.

Both models fly well with everything turned off. When the automation has to be on you just operate a bit differently in each make.

 

[Lear70]

I agree with most of your post however, as an Airbus guy, I am wondering if you are overriding the auto throttles anyway, why are they on. To achieve that feel you are referring to, and rightfully so, I just turn the autopilot/throttles off.

I've never flown anything with a/t that could get gusty winds on an approach 100% right, and sometimes the computer needs help with power settings (10 kts +/- where she SHOULD be cruising and once you tweak the power and hold it for a couple seconds, she figures it out).

Like I said, the automation isn't smarter than the pilot in 99.9% of situations IF the pilot is worth their salt. It's a workload-reduction tool but has to be monitored, like any other system. Just easier in my mind to monitor by tactile feedback rather than having to put another instrument in my scan but, as you pointed out, I haven't flown a Bus product.

Both models fly well with everything turned off. When the automation has to be on you just operate a bit differently in each make.

Point taken, guess I'd have to experience it to see whether it would still bug me, but I see where it *could* have been a factor with everything else they had going on with this accident. One more thing to have to watch rather than just feeling what was going on and putting your attention on other issues.

 

[scoreboardII]

FOX news alert, they found the tail:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13057612
Most boxes are connected to the structure below the tail, anyone with other info?

 

[waveflyer]

The airbus is a great hand flying airplane.... As soon as you stop trying to make it a Boeing.
Oh- and you got to read the manual and know the logic-

 

[Ty Webb]

In your opinion, of course. Should be a memory item.

I don't know if I consider the "airspeed unreliable" charts a memory item, but the information it contains is something you should know, preferably from experience.

I see you and I both flew the DA20. My first one had no FD and a rather tenuous autopilot, so I spent a lot of time at hand-flying "raw data" at FL410. Perhaps you had the same experience. . . . . I got very good at it, but I sure wouldn't want to do it in severe turbulence, which is very likely the scenario that unfortunate crew found themselves in.

Btw, I am amazed at how many pilots I have flown with who have little to no experience hand-flying their jet at max altitude. Pitot or pitot/static failure in a CB would not be a great time to try it for the first time.

TW