Air France 447 Found

[414Flyer]

Quite the opposite. I consider the Airbus to be a wonderful "office". However, I also spent Friday at the CONFEDERATE Air Force hanger. B-17, B-25, A-26, that isn't work...that is HEAVEN. Radial engines will ALWAYS be where it's at. And you, sir, are one lucky SOB.

CONFEDERATE it is. Commemorative is for decorative dinner plates marketed on late night tv infomercials.

Didnt get as much time in the -7 as I wanted, but how many get a chance to fly an old EAL DC-7B around the skies.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

From Air France to C.A.F.

Is it so hard to stay on topic?

 

[sinkrate]

Yeah, I understand the concept of pitch and power, thanks.

What I was asking was that, if the pitot system iced over, as is the hypothesis in the NOVA episode, and thus the ADCs would be getting false data, and the flight control and engine computers would be making decisions based on that false data, would the pilots still be able to set known pitch and power settings?

Would the pilots be able to select a throttle position that would give a known power setting? Would the stick inputs actually be turned into flight control movements?

In other words, to what extent can actual manual inputs (over-riding what the computers 'want' them to do) be made to an Airbus' flight control system and engine power system?

I had the same basic thought when I read the theories of this flight. Anyone that is typed in an AC should not need anything more than one attitude gyro and working engines to maintain controlled flight.

Then the old problem solver took over - check your assumptions. I quickly came up with two assumptions that are questionable - and I think we will learn alot about in the course of this investigation.

The first

As a looonggg time civilian and 121 instructor I'll add this to your question - would they even be familiar with the concept? If they were familiar would they know the attitude and TL positions required?

If the civilian primary training institutions even bother today with the axiom of 'pitch + power = performance' the pilots they are producing completely miss it. They might be able to recite it but they can rarely apply it.

For years one of the first things we learned in any AC was the attitudes for level, climbs, descents and the corresponding power lever positions. In today’s automated environment training starts with 'auto pilot on' and, for demonstration purposes only on an FAA required checkride, turn the auto pilot off but you must use the Flight Director. Many FAA approved programs never involve 'raw data' flight.

The newhires I work with now, even after completing a program of sim training, can't tell me the required attitudes or put the thrust levers in the correct position.

Old Boeing and Douglas Commercial pilots can apply this with no problem. For pilots that learned in automated AC it is an emergency procedure - that doesn't get practiced. Without a Flight Director they can't do much. Add to that the degradation of auto thrust versus auto throttles a maneuver that for many years was normal flight is now an emergency procedure.

The next assumption was

They had two engines capable of rated power. But did they? It could be they knew what to do but didn't have the power to do it. That data indicates the AC was in a controlled attitude. If there was enough ice to overwhelm the ADC's pitot/static systems could it have also overwhelmed the engines pitot/static system. The data they have indicates there was a loss of electric power. What are the fuel control units programmed to do if there is no pitot/static data? I would guess that the auto thrust system has an independent, engine driven source of power. Is that a good guess? The days of 'never mind the ITT or rpm, run it to destruction' are gone. What would the computer do?

As far as flying into a thunderstorm the Archie Trammel course I took years ago started with - 'No turbo jet AC has ever crashed out of cruise flight by flying into a thunderstorm'. This maybe a first but the industry has been doing it for years. Something else is a big contributing factor.

 

[Ty Webb]

When you consider the fact that they were likely in severe turbulence, those "unreliable airspeed" charts for pitch and power would be unreadable and/or worthless.

 

[jonjuan]

When you consider the fact that they were likely in severe turbulence, those "unreliable airspeed" charts for pitch and power would be unreadable and/or worthless.

In your opinion, of course. Should be a memory item.

 

[Lear70]

After a certain amount of jet experience (certainly by the time you get to a "major" airline), approximate Thrust Lever Angle and approximate pitch attitude +/- a degree or so should be fairly instinctive for any regime of flight.

That's why I like Boeing products. I know where they are moving when my hands are resting on them and if I don't like where they're trending, I just override them. Do it all the time on gusty approaches when she starts chasing airspeed, it's more by feel than anything else, and it works well.

Then again, I have almost zero tolerance for the "children of the magenta" who can't do the above without thinking about it, similar to the kind of people Sinkrate referred to above. I like automation, I really do, but I like knowing exactly WHY the airplane is doing what it's doing, see it happening with normal TACTILE feedback, and override it simply by disallowing or overriding the throttles and/or yoke position, regardless of what some d*mn computer (fifi) *thinks* it should be doing.

99.9% of the time, a good Airman is smarter than the computer. If you think otherwise, you probably shouldn't be flying planes. /rant

 

[say again]

Do auto-throttles take some of the fun of actually flying the a/c? I actually enjoy the hands on part of flying.

 

[bubbers44]

I almost never used the AT or autopilot unless it was required by the approach minimums. It takes you out of the loop and makes you a monitor instead of the pilot flying. It is so much easier to just hand fly the approach if wind shear or turbulence upsets your aircraft. I was flying an MD80 into New Orleans one day and it was close to minimums in moderate turbulence so coupled it up and at 500 ft the bells came on, we were in a bank, and I had no idea where the last throttle setting was as everything disconnected in the clouds so reintercepted the ILS and landed. It would have been so much easier to hand fly the approach then go through a recovery at 500 ft in the clouds. Once I got out of the MD80 to the 757 I started trusting the autopilot systems more.

 

[Jar Jar]

Do auto-throttles take some of the fun of actually flying the a/c? I actually enjoy the hands on part of flying.

Yes.

But they can also be a huge advantage, like a go around in LGA where you're gonna be level at 2k, having the throttles managed can really help to free some braincells for turns/checklists/traffic.

 

[eaglesview]

That's why I like Boeing products. I know where they are moving when my hands are resting on them and if I don't like where they're trending, I just override them. Do it all the time on gusty approaches when she starts chasing airspeed, it's more by feel than anything else, and it works well.

Then again, I have almost zero tolerance for the "children of the magenta" who can't do the above without thinking about it, similar to the kind of people Sinkrate referred to above. I like automation, I really do, but I like knowing exactly WHY the airplane is doing what it's doing, see it happening with normal TACTILE feedback, and override it simply by disallowing or overriding the throttles and/or yoke position, regardless of what some d*mn computer (fifi) *thinks* it should be doing.

99.9% of the time, a good Airman is smarter than the computer. If you think otherwise, you probably shouldn't be flying planes. /rant

I agree with most of your post however, as an Airbus guy, I am wondering if you are overriding the auto throttles anyway, why are they on. To achieve that feel you are referring to, and rightfully so, I just turn the autopilot/throttles off.

You ALWAYS know what fifi is thinking, it's just a different way of doing business. Instead of looking/feeling what the throttles are doing you look at the FMA's which is handy since that's also where the info on what the auto pilot is thinking.

Both models fly well with everything turned off. When the automation has to be on you just operate a bit differently in each make.