Age 65 will cause FURLOUGHS and DOWNGRADES

[Phaedrus]

He is, however, like a chihuahua on your pant leg. He's not letting go until he's got him some satisfaction.

 

[jumppilot]

He is, however, like a chihuahua on your pant leg. He's not letting go until he's got him some satisfaction.

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

 

[Andy]

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

1) The thread topic is age 65, not cabotage.
2) Foreign carriers currently pay BETTER than the US. In many cases, MUCH BETTER. rez is suggesting that their wages will be lowered at a much faster rate than that of US pilots. I disagree; US pilots have proven time and again that we'll work for less money than anyone else, including inhabitants of third world countries.

 

[Andy]

Tell me why I am wrong...

You've been told many, many times why you're worong. Multiple times on this thread alone. Tell me when you're going to comprehend what you've been told.

The bottom line is that this thread is about the impact of age 65 - if you are unable to comprehend something as simple as thread topics, how can you be expected to comprehend more complex issues?
Nice diversionary thread hijacking; standard alpo chihauha tactic. Yip a bit louder. Maybe prater'll throw you a doggie biscuit. Now stop crapping on the carpet.

 

[Flopgut]

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

I'll tell you what Rez does a good job of and why I engage him. For those of us who've kept our powder dry and have waited to get too involved with ALPA in order to keep a jump to mgt viable, he makes a great case for staying OUT of ALPA!! Who wouldn't want to bargain against this guy??? He thinks he's Ghandi for crying out loud!! He thinks he understands globalization!! He's a HACK!!

Age 65 did not change because mgts wanted it to. And globalization won't hurt us unless we don't act. To the point: Foriegn control would pit our widebody crews against that of the other country (right now, that foriegn country is going to be EU) If health care were removed from the equation the widebodies would be headed here! NOT there! Of course, the EU pilot group is going to have the sort of job protections that will more likely preclude that. ALPA is NOT working toward smart job protections. ALPA, either does not know how, OR, senior ALPA doesn't care to try. My feeling is, senior ALPA wants to keep the junior members futures' provisional so it's easier to stab them in the back [65]. It's been a constant theme in ALPA to always be able to eat their own.

 

[timmay]

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

You or Rez please enlighten me as to who is going to train all these third world pilots, also whos going to pay for it?
Most people in third world countries dont have a pot to piss in much less pay for flight training.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: You're a legitimate phenomenon. How can so much stupid exist in one person??

Stick to the debate. Personal comments only devalue your postion.

Look: Globalization threat to our jobs numero uno is health care.

Agreed.... healthcare is a big cost. Let's continue on...

Right now, that is the main reason US pilots would lose flying. The astronomical cost paid by our employers provides an opportunity. If we leverage our own answer to high cost health care with job protections, I'll bet we win!!

You bet? Sounds like you aren't completely sure...

Pattern the UAW and hustle up ALPA only health care. Do it right, and we've got enough money on a pretty select class of plan participants there will be plenty of options.

Ok... I understand you are saying ALPA should/could manage our healthcare..... or do you mean like the life and disability insurance that ALPA provides, managed by another company? For example life insurance via New York Life....

Will that control the cost? In addition, my current employer is much larger than 60,000 pilots. My health cost might go up if I switch to a ALPA [provided] healtcare plan.

I don't know how much of the world you've traveled (it sure doesn't sound like much) but, if you take health care out of the equation, it's almost leveled. Seriously, it's a lot worse here in the US than you think.

I haven't been to antarctica.....

BTW, I'm fairly clear about who the "theys" are and the senior contingent proclivities. Get your head out of your butt and pay attention. Stop thinking you're Ghandi and try just acting like you've at least finished 3rd grade. You're thesis of cheerleading us all to better is a fairy tale. You've got no real answers!! You're an embarrassment!!

Maybe you've missed my point. Ghandi or MLKjr are examples because, their effectiveness was in numbers... They got things done by having unity amongts the masses.

It doesn't matter what we want to do... your healthcare idea... which has merit, or whatever... we are not going to do it with a divided house...

So until we ALL get unified.... we cavatate.

1) The thread topic is age 65, not cabotage.

Agreed, but age 60 is over with... that is a (less than) five year shift. What I am talking about is the wholesale elimination of our jobs to cheap foreign labor..... forever....

2) Foreign carriers currently pay BETTER than the US. In many cases, MUCH BETTER. rez is suggesting that their wages will be lowered at a much faster rate than that of US pilots. I disagree; US pilots have proven time and again that we'll work for less money than anyone else, including inhabitants of third world countries.

Nope you are missing the point. The issue is availablity via wages. No one will want to work as a pilot in the US becuase the wages are so poor. We are already seeing that with the regionals.

We might see US pilots going over seas for the better jobs for a while. However, the staffing issue globally is attempting to be resovled, in part by the MPL. Foreign carriers want to hire thier own nationals. And when they can they will prefer to. Of all the western pilots, USA pilots are the least desirable. The Queens subjects usually go first... then the mainland Euros' then the Americans.

You've been told many, many times why you're worong. Multiple times on this thread alone. Tell me when you're going to comprehend what you've been told.

C'mon Andy... you want to whittle this down to..

Andy: You're wrong.
Rez: Am not...
Andy: Are to..
Rez Am not...
Andy Are to
Rez Am not.
Andy I SAID 'ARE TO' FIRST!

Andy, I prefer to debate a bit more intelligently...

BTW what's your class date in April?

The bottom line is that this thread is about the impact of age 65 - if you are unable to comprehend something as simple as thread topics, how can you be expected to comprehend more complex issues?
Nice diversionary thread hijacking; standard alpo chihauha tactic. Yip a bit louder. Maybe prater'll throw you a doggie biscuit. Now stop crapping on the carpet.

I guess you don't want to (or can't) debate intelligently...

I'll tell you what Rez does a good job of and why I engage him. For those of us who've kept our powder dry and have waited to get too involved with ALPA in order to keep a jump to mgt viable, he makes a great case for staying OUT of ALPA!! Who wouldn't want to bargain against this guy??? He thinks he's Ghandi for crying out loud!! He thinks he understands globalization!! He's a HACK!!

So you are going to let me keep you from being involved in your career? Because I disagree with you? It is your career.

The Ghandi/MLKjr example was made to show that we can be effective.... effectiveness through the membership is not an untried or experimental action.

Age 65 did not change because mgts wanted it to. And globalization won't hurt us unless we don't act.

Agreed! I guess we disagree in the HOW.

To the point: Foriegn control would pit our widebody crews against that of the other country (right now, that foriegn country is going to be EU) If health care were removed from the equation the widebodies would be headed here! NOT there!

Disagree. The EU wants access to the US market. The recent negotiated US/EU open skies agreement allows for EU carriers to fly from any point in the EU to US destinations. THis begins March 30. two weeks from now.


http://www.eurunion.org/News/press/2007/2007044.htm

The first ever EU-US aviation agreement, which will be signed today in Washington at the EU-US Transatlantic Summit, was initialed on March 2 in Brussels. It was welcomed by the European Parliament on March 14 and approved unanimously by the twenty-seven Transport Ministers on March 22. It will enter into force on March 30, 2008.

Among the benefits, the Agreement is predicted to bring billions of euros in economic benefits, millions of additional passengers and up to new 80,000 jobs over a five-year period.​

The ultimate objective of the European Union is to create an Open Aviation Area: a single air transport market between the EU and the US in which investment can flow freely and in which European and US airlines can provide air services without any restriction, including access to the domestic markets of both parties. The EU negotiating mandate foresaw the possibility of a staged approach, provided that mechanisms are in place to ensure progression to subsequent stages. The agreement signed today contains a strong mechanism for the phase-two agreement within a strictly defined timescale and a list of priority items. The second-stage negotiations will start no later than May 30, 2008.​

The next (second) stage of negotiations actually starts this month too... March 30.

Not sure how our healthcare cost will stop the EU carriers from wanting a bigger piece of the US market. Can you provide follow up?

Shall we be working to ensure protections thru second stage US/EU open skies protections... or our own healthcare plans? No doubt healthcare is important....

Of course, the EU pilot group is going to have the sort of job protections that will more likely preclude that. ALPA is NOT working toward smart job protections. ALPA, either does not know how, OR, senior ALPA doesn't care to try.

Jobs protections will come codified in US law, ICAO code and the US/EU agreements. That is where we should be focusing our efforts..... not sure about healthcare.

My feeling is, senior ALPA wants to keep the junior members futures' provisional so it's easier to stab them in the back [65]. It's been a constant theme in ALPA to always be able to eat their own.

Perhaps.... however you best be sure that your "feeling" is correct. Otherwise you are wasting valuable energy and resources
on internal fighting instead of US law, ICAO code and US/EU agreements.





http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2007:134:0004:0041:EN:PDF

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You or Rez please enlighten me as to who is going to train all these third world pilots, also whos going to pay for it?

Ehtiopian flies to 48 cities, including Washington Dulles. I thought Ethiopia was a starving African country in the dirt?

The ICAO MPL license is in part designed to train TW pilots to rectify the shortage. Keep in mind that global commerce isn't going to stop because of "us", or what we think, or our perceptions on the matter...

Most people in third world countries dont have a pot to piss in much less pay for flight training.

You are showing our American arrogance and ignorance, respectfully...

In many TW countries, the caste system or nepotism decides who flies and works for the national carrier. Often the flight training is paid for in return for service agreements, etc...

Think about it... the honoe to work for a TW countries national airline is a familiy responsibility that could be weighed heavily.

Now... it would dishonor a family if the families choosen son screwed up. This enters another understanding or global aviation: many pilots fear thier employers more than their countires regulating agency. So for us..... Its like us Americans doing whatever our company wants becuase we fear our employer over the FAA.

Who cares about the 'FAA' if we can bring shame to our family by not doing what the company wants, regardless of safety.

So... now we got these "fearful' pilots from ol' East Bloc countries flying into the US under a new US/EU agreement who fear thier company over the gov't.

You want that?

The solution is for us in the West to help these pilots. Otherwise they will bring us all down...

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: We've got to attack the stragey in place against us. That is, mgts going after dollars or at least creating the illusion they are going after dollars. Health care is so out of control it's become almost a cliche for mgt to assail. They want to leverage our futures against it; let's take that away from them! It's not like unions haven't done this before?! Come on man, are you going to act confused about how to pay for it?! ALPA shops comparable health care for 10s of thousands who are currently paying through the nose...What health care provider isn't going to want to jump on that?? The "bet" I'll make is that we can do it cheaper, I'm sure we can do it. We should do it. Senior ALPA won't talk about it because they just got done serving their own needs with 65. And they are on standby to do no less than the same thing on Open Skies I'm afraid.

It is too late to think you're going to get participation to the level you want to have your Moses moment. Especially, without any real plan!!

 

[Andy]

Ehtiopian flies to 48 cities, including Washington Dulles. I thought Ethiopia was a starving African country in the dirt?

The ICAO MPL license is in part designed to train TW pilots to rectify the shortage. Keep in mind that global commerce isn't going to stop because of "us", or what we think, or our perceptions on the matter...

So what you're trying to do is incite fear that Xixo, after finding the soda bottle, will learn fluent English and become an international airline pilot. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080801/

The language requirement alone eliminates most third world countries' populations save for the families of the elite. And they're NOT going to accept US wages.

Agreed, but age 60 is over with... that is a (less than) five year shift. What I am talking about is the wholesale elimination of our jobs to cheap foreign labor..... forever....

What I'm talking about is that you're way off topic in order to obfuscate another alpo failure. Woof.
If you want to pontificate on how cabotage will destroy this occupation (no longer a profession), do it on another thread. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

It doesn't matter what we want to do... your healthcare idea... which has merit, or whatever... we are not going to do it with a divided house...

So until we ALL get unified.... we cavatate.

That's what happens when you ignore the majority of your membership.

BTW what's your class date in April?

Anyone could track me down, if desired. I'm not that freaking mysterious. But your question begets three questions. What is it to you? Are you some sort of stalker? Would you please post your name on this forum so that I know who's asking this information?