Age 65 will cause FURLOUGHS and DOWNGRADES

[Freight Dog]

I'm speechless, Rez. Just speechless.... You really are blind.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: you have no SA. I don't support USAPA.

Good. If USAPA is successful in thier efforts it will take even longer for you and I to protect our careers. That is the real danger of USAPA. Their divisiveness will hurt everyone...including themselves...

What planet are you from? Seriously? It sounds like you think we should champion the needs Chinese and South American pilots as an answer to globalization. Is that right?

Acutally it is. For if we do not help the Chinese and SA pilots and all others with a lower standard, then thier standard will be the world standard, not ours.

It is not a difficult concept. That is the challenge of globalization.... Not just for pilots but for workers worldwide. You know how the chinese live in factory dormitories... Do you think those who control the distibution of wealth want to pay workers chinese or American wages?

In fact where is all the work going? Is it staying here in America or going to China? Why? cause they build better and safer toys?

We need to take care of pilot jobs here, no where else.

Wrong... and I will tell you why.. keep reading..

And we will accomplish that by leveling the playing field with an answer to health care and shoring up our retirement needs.

All the while, the Chinese, South Americans, etc.. will offer pilot services cheaper than you and I. If you forget and don't care about the Chinese and South Americans, they why should they care about you when they undercut you.

What is to stop powerful lobbyist for CorpAmerica to say to the gov't.. we can't get pilots in the US. We have to hire overseas... and you the US Gov't are going to issue residents permits and work permits for Chinese and South Americans.. other wise the US airline industry shuts down. You think the gov't is going to listen to ALPA with its 14% member particaption in its PAC?

Gee millions of dollars via CorpAmerica vs. 100,000 of dollars via ALPA. Money talks bullshat walks...

This could be done if ALPA would pattern what the UAW is doing (health care) and if we could achieve a railroad like retirement plan. But, ALPA won't do that.

I'll put the burden on you. tell me... why won't ALPA do that... and why should they???

When I contact them I have to talk to someone like you who can pretty well describe the problem, but has NO answers! NONE!

So you think ALPA should pattern after another industry. How do you know that you are right? I am not saying you are wrong. But what are your ideas? What are the details?

You think pragmatism is the answer, ALPA thinks it's the answer, you're both wrong. Truth: Retirement age doesn't really matter in other ICAO countries. It never did, on either side of the equation. And it shouldn't matter here, but the senior A-holes made it matter.

Ok... now ...is it the ALPA or the senior guys? You are confusing me... help me understand.

They took it half way and engineered a band-aid on medical standards just to help themselves.

Who is "they"? ALPA or the senior guys?

What you don't realize is that ALPA National thinks you and I are young and spoiled and they are happy we want to make sweeping changes and help the whole world.


It keeps us busy while they take for themselves. Now the difference between me and you? YOU are going to end up just like them!

Sorry.. it is not sweeping changes and helping the whole world. It is fundamental to our survival.

You seem to be focused on YOU. And you do this by creating a them vs. me ideal in your mind. It will be our demise and it is elementry to us "being our own worse enemy"

You want to be understood, yet you are unwilling to understand...

When ALPA doesn act and get results that you think should be gotten, suddenly its ALPA's fault. It has nothing to do with reality, the globalization, etc... It is just easier for you to blame ALPA. Perhaps its because you don't pay dues to reality. Or you don't have a phone number to Globalization. Maybe if you did you could call them...

You'll be delighted to lick the boot kicking the shat out of you!

You are younger than me, with your immature name calling.

Cause you've got NO answers! NONE!

Wrong. I do have answers. It's called education, particaption, unity, patience, etc... This isn't difficult, it has been done before: MLKjr and Ghandi. Why is it no one wants to do this???

The wrong answers are guys like you that want to fight within. You become one issue orientated. You can't disagree on one issue then work together on another issue.

I defy you to come up with a working plan for raising the standard of living for Chinese pilots like I suspect you think should be done!!

How about the effort to help the chinese with the implemenation with RVSM in thier airspace?

You want to do that?? Then make our own working reality better... That's how you'll help everyone.

We make our own working reality better by helping others make thiers better... if we don't then they will drag us down....


Your reply?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm speechless, Rez. Just speechless.... You really are blind.

Then reply to my post above...

 

[timmay]

Maybe you didn't read my post..... I said in 10 years.



Compared to whom? The Euro's? What about the SA and Africans? Chinese? How much does a pilot in Cuba make?

These pilots are the threat to our profession in NA in the next ten years.

Thats the funniest thing I think I've ever heard. Africans and Cubans are going to be taking all the flying jobs. If that is ALPA's big concern for the next 10 years I'm glad they are not getting 2% from me anymore.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Thats the funniest thing I think I've ever heard. Africans and Cubans are going to be taking all the flying jobs. If that is ALPA's big concern for the next 10 years I'm glad they are not getting 2% from me anymore.

When commercial marine freighters cross the Atlantic and Pacific are American saliors and Officers acting as crew?

Being crew on an American transoceanic merchant ship was a common and well paid career. Esecially as an officer, like a Capt.

How many are there now? Ships and crew?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thats the funniest thing I think I've ever heard. Africans and Cubans are going to be taking all the flying jobs. If that is ALPA's big concern for the next 10 years I'm glad they are not getting 2% from me anymore.

It's the ALPA cheerleaders deflecting the issue away from their failures....."Let's create a new problem to get the pilot's minds off of our previous and current failures"......

Besides if they were serious about it they would have opposed the MPL......rather than trying to "work with it".......

 

[JoeMerchant]

When commercial marine freighters cross the Atlantic and Pacific are American saliors and Officers acting as crew?

Being crew on an American transoceanic merchant ship was a common and well paid career. Esecially as an officer, like a Capt.

How many are there now? Ships and crew?

.....actually this is more a result of shipping lines not home porting ships here due to our excessive regulation and tax burdens.....The law of unintended consequences strikes again....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.....actually this is more a result of shipping lines not home porting ships here due to our excessive regulation and tax burdens.....The law of unintended consequences strikes again....

and that won't happen to us....


cheap foreign pilots flying most if not all widebodies transoceanic into the US on MPLs....

all thats left is narrow body flying domestically for US pilots...

 

[JoeMerchant]

and that won't happen to us....


cheap foreign pilots flying most if not all widebodies transoceanic into the US on MPLs....

all thats left is narrow body flying domestically for US pilots...

....they are separate issues....

....It is an issue of overregulation and taxes.....We can't control what happens outside of our borders....That is why ships fly flags of convenience...to get around taxes and regulation...Maybe we should lower the tax and regulatory burdain on shipping lines to attract more home ports here.....

The labor issue is a different issue and is valid whether or not I am worried about being replaced by a pilot from India or by an ALPA member who attended the Mesa Pilot Development program.....The later is far more likely at this point...When we solve that problem then we can talk about what might happen later.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

....they are separate issues....

Does it matter if they yield the same results?

....It is an issue of overregulation and taxes.....We can't control what happens outside of our borders....That is why ships fly flags of convenience...to get around taxes and regulation...

And our case this is why companies will go to foreign cheap labor. The same reason Levis' jeans and Masterlock went overseas.

Maybe we should lower the tax and regulatory burdain on shipping lines to attract more home ports here.....

Gee Joe... how do we do that?

The labor issue is a different issue and is valid whether or not I am worried about being replaced by a pilot from India or by an ALPA member who attended the Mesa Pilot Development program.....The later is far more likely at this point...When we solve that problem then we can talk about what might happen later.......

That is like defering the cargo fire to address the medical emergency....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Does it matter if they yield the same results?

Different problems, different causes, and different solutions...

And our case this is why companies will go to foreign cheap labor. The same reason Levis' jeans and Masterlock went overseas.

US airlines don't go to foreign countries for cheaper labor.....they find it right here....many wearing ALPA pins with ALPA pom-poms in their hands.....CMR, ALG, CCAir, ACA, and AirWilly were replaced by card carrying union members from this country.....

Gee Joe... how do we do that?

Not by endorsing Hillary or Obama....they haven't met a tax or a regulation they didn't like.....

That is like defering the cargo fire to address the medical emergency....

You have it backwards......you want to worry about a possible medical emergency down the road while you have a cargo fire....I'm going to worry about the cargo fire....If it isn't put out or if the plane is put on the ground quickly....the rest of the problems are moot......Nice analogy....just backwards.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Different problems, different causes, and different solutions..

Same results: lost pilot jobs.

US airlines don't go to foreign countries for cheaper labor.....

not yet....

they find it right here....many wearing ALPA pins with ALPA pom-poms in their hands.....CMR, ALG, CCAir, ACA, and AirWilly were replaced by card carrying union members from this country.....

And of course that is ALPA's fault.

I've been furloughed twice butterfingers and I don't blame my fellow pilot. Only guys like you can hate your own....

Fights out there... but you like to fight here.

Not by endorsing Hillary or Obama....they haven't met a tax or a regulation they didn't like.....

Another RALP... you're a pig voting for Jimmy Dean...

You have it backwards......you want to worry about a possible medical emergency down the road while you have a cargo fire....I'm going to worry about the cargo fire....If it isn't put out or if the plane is put on the ground quickly....the rest of the problems are moot......Nice analogy....just backwards.....

Opps that is correct... your version of right is better than mine. thus, you only care about you... lest I forget who I am dealing with...

We can solve your problems and mine... if you want to Joey.... do you?

 

[DOVPILOT]

Time to seal the windows, turn on the gas, make some macaroni and cheese and just ...

now that's a classic!!!

 

[timmay]

Rez you obviously have zero understanding of aviation on a global level. The worldwide demand for pilots is huge much more so than in the US. Other countries beg americans to fly for them because they have no pilots of their own. You think this will change in 10 years?
Give me an example of what could possible happen to make foreigners flood the US pilot market within 10 years?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Rez you obviously have zero understanding of aviation on a global level. The worldwide demand for pilots is huge much more so than in the US. Other countries beg americans to fly for them because they have no pilots of their own. You think this will change in 10 years?
Give me an example of what could possible happen to make foreigners flood the US pilot market within 10 years?

....there are Indian ATR operators who are begging to hire American pilots.....and here is the kicker....They pay MORE than US ALPA carriers.....Anyone else see the irony.....

So foreign carriers are the problem when they have to come here to get pilots AND they pay MORE than we do....Yet we have to worry about them....

This is nothing more than the ALPA cheerleaders deflecting the issue.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez you obviously have zero understanding of aviation on a global level. The worldwide demand for pilots is huge much more so than in the US. Other countries beg americans to fly for them because they have no pilots of their own. You think this will change in 10 years?
Give me an example of what could possible happen to make foreigners flood the US pilot market within 10 years?

Today, the demand for pilots allows for US pilots to go to India, Emerits, Cathay, etc... I would imagine cathay will always be looking for non Chinese/HK pilots.... that is unique... finding local talent in HK might be tough...

However,... do you see management raising wages to attract local pilots? Do you think management cares if pilots are US natives? Does management in other industries care who picks the lettuce, nails the plywood and cleans the toilet? Does management care if its an American cleaning that toilet?

Don't think you are so valued cause you are a pilot. management does not care who flies the jets. Look at hiring at regionals... has mgmnt raised the bar or lowered it to staff the airline? Do you need 2000 or 200 hours to get hired?

So... in ten years or 15 or 20... whenever the market demands it... management will get labor in the global market place wherever they can....

The justification for foreign labor is the same... if we can't find it here, then look over the boarders... and the DHS will issue the work and resident permits and the economy will move on...

And all the guys that just graduated from ERAU or what have you that spent 100,000 on a commerical license will be paying school loans for a career that no longer exists...

the MPL license is a threat to us US pilots because management will not use it as an ab intio program like the Euro's and Asians do.... management in the west will use it to get guys with SJS to fly...not CRJ's and ERJ's but Airbus and Boeing... and when that pool dries up they will go overseas...


Tell me why I am wrong...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

....there are Indian ATR operators who are begging to hire American pilots.....and here is the kicker....They pay MORE than US ALPA carriers.....Anyone else see the irony.....

So foreign carriers are the problem when they have to come here to get pilots AND they pay MORE than we do....Yet we have to worry about them....

This is nothing more than the ALPA cheerleaders deflecting the issue.....

Whats the issue?

And when the non West airlines get thier staffing up to speed, in part to MPL, due to the recent and rapid expansion of the global airline industry, where do you think the excess non west pilots will be ready to work.... and who will be ready to hire them?

That is right Joey... they will be ready to fly your ATR for less.

Who cares if it is a Mesa Pilot or an India pilot....

 

[JoeMerchant]

Who cares if it is a Mesa Pilot or an India pilot....

EXACTLY....and now the threat comes from within.....Can we not deal with the immediate threat first....

Back to that cargo fire analogy.....If I get replaced by a fellow ALPA member I frankly won't give a darn if you get replaced 10 years down the road........

Tell me Rez...why are non-union Indian carriers paying more for ATR pilots than union American carriers?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

EXACTLY....and now the threat comes from within.....Can we not deal with the immediate threat first....

Sure how do we do that joe? HOW?

Back to that cargo fire analogy.....If I get replaced by a fellow ALPA member I frankly won't give a darn if you get replaced 10 years down the road........

So widebody pay goes to crap beacuse Xiang and Gupreet Patel and flying the jets... and your pay... stays?

Tell me Rez...why are non-union Indian carriers paying more for ATR pilots than union American carriers?

Not sure Joe... I am not a Global economist... I don't know the sociogeopolitical dynamcis of supply and demand....

Do you?

 

[Flopgut]

Your reply?

Rez: You're a legitimate phenomenon. How can so much stupid exist in one person??

Look: Globalization threat to our jobs numero uno is health care. Right now, that is the main reason US pilots would lose flying. The astronomical cost paid by our employers provides an opportunity. If we leverage our own answer to high cost health care with job protections, I'll bet we win!! Pattern the UAW and hustle up ALPA only health care. Do it right, and we've got enough money on a pretty select class of plan participants there will be plenty of options. I don't know how much of the world you've traveled (it sure doesn't sound like much) but, if you take health care out of the equation, it's almost leveled. Seriously, it's a lot worse here in the US than you think.

BTW, I'm fairly clear about who the "theys" are and the senior contingent proclivities. Get your head out of your butt and pay attention. Stop thinking you're Ghandi and try just acting like you've at least finished 3rd grade. You're thesis of cheerleading us all to better is a fairy tale. You've got no real answers!! You're an embarrassment!!

 

[Phaedrus]

He is, however, like a chihuahua on your pant leg. He's not letting go until he's got him some satisfaction.

 

[jumppilot]

He is, however, like a chihuahua on your pant leg. He's not letting go until he's got him some satisfaction.

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

 

[Andy]

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

1) The thread topic is age 65, not cabotage.
2) Foreign carriers currently pay BETTER than the US. In many cases, MUCH BETTER. rez is suggesting that their wages will be lowered at a much faster rate than that of US pilots. I disagree; US pilots have proven time and again that we'll work for less money than anyone else, including inhabitants of third world countries.

 

[Andy]

Tell me why I am wrong...

You've been told many, many times why you're worong. Multiple times on this thread alone. Tell me when you're going to comprehend what you've been told.

The bottom line is that this thread is about the impact of age 65 - if you are unable to comprehend something as simple as thread topics, how can you be expected to comprehend more complex issues?
Nice diversionary thread hijacking; standard alpo chihauha tactic. Yip a bit louder. Maybe prater'll throw you a doggie biscuit. Now stop crapping on the carpet.

 

[Flopgut]

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

I'll tell you what Rez does a good job of and why I engage him. For those of us who've kept our powder dry and have waited to get too involved with ALPA in order to keep a jump to mgt viable, he makes a great case for staying OUT of ALPA!! Who wouldn't want to bargain against this guy??? He thinks he's Ghandi for crying out loud!! He thinks he understands globalization!! He's a HACK!!

Age 65 did not change because mgts wanted it to. And globalization won't hurt us unless we don't act. To the point: Foriegn control would pit our widebody crews against that of the other country (right now, that foriegn country is going to be EU) If health care were removed from the equation the widebodies would be headed here! NOT there! Of course, the EU pilot group is going to have the sort of job protections that will more likely preclude that. ALPA is NOT working toward smart job protections. ALPA, either does not know how, OR, senior ALPA doesn't care to try. My feeling is, senior ALPA wants to keep the junior members futures' provisional so it's easier to stab them in the back [65]. It's been a constant theme in ALPA to always be able to eat their own.

 

[timmay]

I disagree.

I've seen many posts here saying he is like a dog humping your leg, doesn't understand how things work, obviously hasn't traveled the world, yet he always replies back with a well thought out post citing the logic that he at least understands...And quite frankly, I follow it as well.

He brings up good points about people from other countries flying our planes. All it takes is a rule change, much like Age 65, and *boom*, our airlines are hiring people from 3rd world countries with a MCPL.

He's right. It can happen. And Age 65 showed us just how quickly, if our airlines lobby for a change due to a pilot shortage. Remember, all they care about is money and stock price, not who is flying their plane.

As an observer, he is winning this post battle.

Continue the thread, it's interesting!

You or Rez please enlighten me as to who is going to train all these third world pilots, also whos going to pay for it?
Most people in third world countries dont have a pot to piss in much less pay for flight training.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez: You're a legitimate phenomenon. How can so much stupid exist in one person??

Stick to the debate. Personal comments only devalue your postion.

Look: Globalization threat to our jobs numero uno is health care.

Agreed.... healthcare is a big cost. Let's continue on...

Right now, that is the main reason US pilots would lose flying. The astronomical cost paid by our employers provides an opportunity. If we leverage our own answer to high cost health care with job protections, I'll bet we win!!

You bet? Sounds like you aren't completely sure...

Pattern the UAW and hustle up ALPA only health care. Do it right, and we've got enough money on a pretty select class of plan participants there will be plenty of options.

Ok... I understand you are saying ALPA should/could manage our healthcare..... or do you mean like the life and disability insurance that ALPA provides, managed by another company? For example life insurance via New York Life....

Will that control the cost? In addition, my current employer is much larger than 60,000 pilots. My health cost might go up if I switch to a ALPA [provided] healtcare plan.

I don't know how much of the world you've traveled (it sure doesn't sound like much) but, if you take health care out of the equation, it's almost leveled. Seriously, it's a lot worse here in the US than you think.

I haven't been to antarctica.....

BTW, I'm fairly clear about who the "theys" are and the senior contingent proclivities. Get your head out of your butt and pay attention. Stop thinking you're Ghandi and try just acting like you've at least finished 3rd grade. You're thesis of cheerleading us all to better is a fairy tale. You've got no real answers!! You're an embarrassment!!

Maybe you've missed my point. Ghandi or MLKjr are examples because, their effectiveness was in numbers... They got things done by having unity amongts the masses.

It doesn't matter what we want to do... your healthcare idea... which has merit, or whatever... we are not going to do it with a divided house...

So until we ALL get unified.... we cavatate.

1) The thread topic is age 65, not cabotage.

Agreed, but age 60 is over with... that is a (less than) five year shift. What I am talking about is the wholesale elimination of our jobs to cheap foreign labor..... forever....

2) Foreign carriers currently pay BETTER than the US. In many cases, MUCH BETTER. rez is suggesting that their wages will be lowered at a much faster rate than that of US pilots. I disagree; US pilots have proven time and again that we'll work for less money than anyone else, including inhabitants of third world countries.

Nope you are missing the point. The issue is availablity via wages. No one will want to work as a pilot in the US becuase the wages are so poor. We are already seeing that with the regionals.

We might see US pilots going over seas for the better jobs for a while. However, the staffing issue globally is attempting to be resovled, in part by the MPL. Foreign carriers want to hire thier own nationals. And when they can they will prefer to. Of all the western pilots, USA pilots are the least desirable. The Queens subjects usually go first... then the mainland Euros' then the Americans.

You've been told many, many times why you're worong. Multiple times on this thread alone. Tell me when you're going to comprehend what you've been told.

C'mon Andy... you want to whittle this down to..

Andy: You're wrong.
Rez: Am not...
Andy: Are to..
Rez Am not...
Andy Are to
Rez Am not.
Andy I SAID 'ARE TO' FIRST!

Andy, I prefer to debate a bit more intelligently...

BTW what's your class date in April?

The bottom line is that this thread is about the impact of age 65 - if you are unable to comprehend something as simple as thread topics, how can you be expected to comprehend more complex issues?
Nice diversionary thread hijacking; standard alpo chihauha tactic. Yip a bit louder. Maybe prater'll throw you a doggie biscuit. Now stop crapping on the carpet.

I guess you don't want to (or can't) debate intelligently...

I'll tell you what Rez does a good job of and why I engage him. For those of us who've kept our powder dry and have waited to get too involved with ALPA in order to keep a jump to mgt viable, he makes a great case for staying OUT of ALPA!! Who wouldn't want to bargain against this guy??? He thinks he's Ghandi for crying out loud!! He thinks he understands globalization!! He's a HACK!!

So you are going to let me keep you from being involved in your career? Because I disagree with you? It is your career.

The Ghandi/MLKjr example was made to show that we can be effective.... effectiveness through the membership is not an untried or experimental action.

Age 65 did not change because mgts wanted it to. And globalization won't hurt us unless we don't act.

Agreed! I guess we disagree in the HOW.

To the point: Foriegn control would pit our widebody crews against that of the other country (right now, that foriegn country is going to be EU) If health care were removed from the equation the widebodies would be headed here! NOT there!

Disagree. The EU wants access to the US market. The recent negotiated US/EU open skies agreement allows for EU carriers to fly from any point in the EU to US destinations. THis begins March 30. two weeks from now.


http://www.eurunion.org/News/press/2007/2007044.htm

The first ever EU-US aviation agreement, which will be signed today in Washington at the EU-US Transatlantic Summit, was initialed on March 2 in Brussels. It was welcomed by the European Parliament on March 14 and approved unanimously by the twenty-seven Transport Ministers on March 22. It will enter into force on March 30, 2008.

Among the benefits, the Agreement is predicted to bring billions of euros in economic benefits, millions of additional passengers and up to new 80,000 jobs over a five-year period.​

The ultimate objective of the European Union is to create an Open Aviation Area: a single air transport market between the EU and the US in which investment can flow freely and in which European and US airlines can provide air services without any restriction, including access to the domestic markets of both parties. The EU negotiating mandate foresaw the possibility of a staged approach, provided that mechanisms are in place to ensure progression to subsequent stages. The agreement signed today contains a strong mechanism for the phase-two agreement within a strictly defined timescale and a list of priority items. The second-stage negotiations will start no later than May 30, 2008.​

The next (second) stage of negotiations actually starts this month too... March 30.

Not sure how our healthcare cost will stop the EU carriers from wanting a bigger piece of the US market. Can you provide follow up?

Shall we be working to ensure protections thru second stage US/EU open skies protections... or our own healthcare plans? No doubt healthcare is important....

Of course, the EU pilot group is going to have the sort of job protections that will more likely preclude that. ALPA is NOT working toward smart job protections. ALPA, either does not know how, OR, senior ALPA doesn't care to try.

Jobs protections will come codified in US law, ICAO code and the US/EU agreements. That is where we should be focusing our efforts..... not sure about healthcare.

My feeling is, senior ALPA wants to keep the junior members futures' provisional so it's easier to stab them in the back [65]. It's been a constant theme in ALPA to always be able to eat their own.

Perhaps.... however you best be sure that your "feeling" is correct. Otherwise you are wasting valuable energy and resources
on internal fighting instead of US law, ICAO code and US/EU agreements.





http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2007:134:0004:0041:EN:PDF

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You or Rez please enlighten me as to who is going to train all these third world pilots, also whos going to pay for it?

Ehtiopian flies to 48 cities, including Washington Dulles. I thought Ethiopia was a starving African country in the dirt?

The ICAO MPL license is in part designed to train TW pilots to rectify the shortage. Keep in mind that global commerce isn't going to stop because of "us", or what we think, or our perceptions on the matter...

Most people in third world countries dont have a pot to piss in much less pay for flight training.

You are showing our American arrogance and ignorance, respectfully...

In many TW countries, the caste system or nepotism decides who flies and works for the national carrier. Often the flight training is paid for in return for service agreements, etc...

Think about it... the honoe to work for a TW countries national airline is a familiy responsibility that could be weighed heavily.

Now... it would dishonor a family if the families choosen son screwed up. This enters another understanding or global aviation: many pilots fear thier employers more than their countires regulating agency. So for us..... Its like us Americans doing whatever our company wants becuase we fear our employer over the FAA.

Who cares about the 'FAA' if we can bring shame to our family by not doing what the company wants, regardless of safety.

So... now we got these "fearful' pilots from ol' East Bloc countries flying into the US under a new US/EU agreement who fear thier company over the gov't.

You want that?

The solution is for us in the West to help these pilots. Otherwise they will bring us all down...

 

[Flopgut]

Rez: We've got to attack the stragey in place against us. That is, mgts going after dollars or at least creating the illusion they are going after dollars. Health care is so out of control it's become almost a cliche for mgt to assail. They want to leverage our futures against it; let's take that away from them! It's not like unions haven't done this before?! Come on man, are you going to act confused about how to pay for it?! ALPA shops comparable health care for 10s of thousands who are currently paying through the nose...What health care provider isn't going to want to jump on that?? The "bet" I'll make is that we can do it cheaper, I'm sure we can do it. We should do it. Senior ALPA won't talk about it because they just got done serving their own needs with 65. And they are on standby to do no less than the same thing on Open Skies I'm afraid.

It is too late to think you're going to get participation to the level you want to have your Moses moment. Especially, without any real plan!!

 

[Andy]

Ehtiopian flies to 48 cities, including Washington Dulles. I thought Ethiopia was a starving African country in the dirt?

The ICAO MPL license is in part designed to train TW pilots to rectify the shortage. Keep in mind that global commerce isn't going to stop because of "us", or what we think, or our perceptions on the matter...

So what you're trying to do is incite fear that Xixo, after finding the soda bottle, will learn fluent English and become an international airline pilot. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080801/

The language requirement alone eliminates most third world countries' populations save for the families of the elite. And they're NOT going to accept US wages.

Agreed, but age 60 is over with... that is a (less than) five year shift. What I am talking about is the wholesale elimination of our jobs to cheap foreign labor..... forever....

What I'm talking about is that you're way off topic in order to obfuscate another alpo failure. Woof.
If you want to pontificate on how cabotage will destroy this occupation (no longer a profession), do it on another thread. Is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

It doesn't matter what we want to do... your healthcare idea... which has merit, or whatever... we are not going to do it with a divided house...

So until we ALL get unified.... we cavatate.

That's what happens when you ignore the majority of your membership.

BTW what's your class date in April?

Anyone could track me down, if desired. I'm not that freaking mysterious. But your question begets three questions. What is it to you? Are you some sort of stalker? Would you please post your name on this forum so that I know who's asking this information?