Age 65 right around corner... 15 year upgrades at SWA!!!

[FlyByNight1]

anyone here if any of the airlines will still allow full retirement at age 60 if you so choose? I dont think many of the 59 year olds planning retirement are looking forward to a forced 5 more years.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

My Dad used to call ALPA "The Captains union". Nothing has changed since the old days, except Prater and the top echelon will get to enjoy their exorbitant and outrageous ALPA salaries for another 5 years.

The Old days? Is that when co-pilots had no vote or half a vote?

Outrageous salaries? Prater is the only one who is on salary. The 1St VP, VP Finance and VP Admin all get what they would earn flying the line minus per deim, plus expenses, including the cost of Wash DC living. Didn't Dad tell you that?

Just becuase age 60 goes to 65 doesn't mean they are in for another five years. They have to get elected.

Time to dump ALPA.

Sounds good. Who will lead the new organization? Or will there be one? If there will be one, will the new organization state: A minority particaption will be considered a majority?

Recall with this Age60/65, the minority that particapted (is that a majority?) stated that if the law where to change beyond the control of ALPA, would the membership want ALPA to influence the language as best possible for its members (my words). The minority majority agreed.

Recall, ALPA and unions are not regulatory. So they must have consensus. Yet the membership was too bothered to be involved...


But lets get back to more important things...

ALPA SUCKS!!! Let's burn it down!. It's nothing but a democracy! Its a Captain Club! Its for fuddy Duddies! Suck it John! Secretary salaries are out of control. Pitch forks and torches, lets go to Herndon!

 

[flygirlqt]

Well that sure didn't take long.

The Old days? Is that when co-pilots had no vote or half a vote?




Sounds good. Who will lead the new organization? Or will there be one? If there will be one, will the new organization state: A minority particaption will be considered a majority?

Recall with this Age60/65, the minority that particapted (is that a majority?) stated that if the law where to change beyond the control of ALPA, would the membership want ALPA to influence the language as best possible for its members (my words). The minority majority agreed.

Recall, ALPA and unions are not regulatory. So they must have consensus. Yet the membership was too bothered to be involved...


But lets get back to more important things...

ALPA SUCKS!!! Let's burn it down!. It's nothing but a democracy! Its a Captain Club! Its for fuddy Duddies! Suck it John! Secretary salaries are out of control. Pitch forks and torches, lets go to Herndon!

There you have it..just as I predicted..the memberships fault.

Seriously, you are a tool to eep believing in your messiahs in Herndon. Maybe if you brown nose a little longer and harder they might even let you shine their shoes.

What kind of shoes do these vermin wear when making $500K + off our backs anyway?

 

[SuperFLUF]

............Translation: Anyone under 50 will be forced to work until they are 65 in order to make the same pay and retirement they would have made by 60 now......

Working to 65 won't make up for the lost retirement. The 5 year loss of compounding and time value of money invested will more than double the requirement to make it up.

So the next group will push for age 67 and then the group affected by that will push for 69 or 70.....and the next thing you know, retirement plans won't be needed. Only pre-paid funeral plans that include shipping from whatever lay over you die at.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

There you have it..just as I predicted..the memberships fault.

It all starts and ends there. Should Prater come over to your house and ask you want you want for Christmas. When he is done he can go visit the other 59,999 ALPA pilots. maybe you can sit on his lap and get your picture taken. and tell him what you want for your airline career.

If ALPA is the same and nothing changed since the days of your Dad.....

Then why did you get in this profession? Why do you expect it to be different?

Seriously, you are a tool to eep believing in your messiahs in Herndon. Maybe if you brown nose a little longer and harder they might even let you shine their shoes.

Who cares about the Herndon people. (btw, I've real issues with some of the staffers..but that is another thread...)

What kind of shoes do these vermin wear when making $500K + off our backs anyway?

As I said to you in another thread.. when you are ready to be informed and educated.. and effect positive change... your entire career is waiting for you....

 

[Deerkiller]

anyone here if any of the airlines will still allow full retirement at age 60 if you so choose? I dont think many of the 59 year olds planning retirement are looking forward to a forced 5 more years.

It'll have to be negotiated. Check out paragraph "f" in the Bill.

 

[Full of LUV]

Alpa???

It all starts and ends there. Should Prater come over to your house and ask you want you want for Christmas. When he is done he can go visit the other 59,999 ALPA pilots. maybe you can sit on his lap and get your picture taken. and tell him what you want for your airline career.

If ALPA is the same and nothing changed since the days of your Dad.....

Then why did you get in this profession? Why do you expect it to be different?



Who cares about the Herndon people. (btw, I've real issues with some of the staffers..but that is another thread...)



As I said to you in another thread.. when you are ready to be informed and educated.. and effect positive change... your entire career is waiting for you....

Rez,
I agree that a lot of the ALPA rhetoric is overdone, but didn't a majority of the minority also say that ALPA should resist the change in retirement age???? Also, why does ALPA propose nothing about mitigating the windfall to the pilots who will turn 60 next year, ie phasing in the rules change??? Lastly, why does a "Blue Ribbon Panel" on the retirement age change consist of like 9 captains and one FO. I'm pretty sure the makeup of ALPA is closer to 50/50. I think we all know the reason, and it is not going to be easy to convince the FO ALPA membership that they were not just bent over and handed a ******************** sandwich on which they will dine the remainder of their careers.
Luv

 

[Yuppyguppy]

This is a disgrace to all of us who said NO...

 

[Flopgut]

There is an opportunity for those not is favor of this. ALPA's stated goal is to maintain age 60 as normal retirement age. Communicate to your reps that you want this to mean something and that you want to vote on it. As it goes into your collective bargaining agreement reduce pay for work past normal retirement age. Something significant (thier vacations should be reduced as well) like a new sort of B scale. Last five years should go from 50% hourly wage down to new hire pay for thier last year. Wean them off harshly and keep the money going to the younger pilots. Working past age 60 should be an abnormal situation, we want these pilots to ration themselves and work no longer than they need to. If we don't do this we are going to suffer the same arguement for age 70.

This is a great opportunity to get involved and it should be a slam dunk: the MAJORITY is against it! Prater might try to ignore the previously stated goal of maintaining age 60 retirement as normal, so the first step is to communicate with your reps.

Let em work! But make it sting a little. It will be good for them, us and ALPA.

Call and email your reps.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

ONE LAST thing to for SWA guys remeber SWAPA was for the age 65...

 

[mdf]

ONE LAST thing to for SWA guys remeber SWAPA was for the age 65...

At least part of SWAPA was. I think the last vote was something like 55-45.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,
I agree that a lot of the ALPA rhetoric is overdone, but didn't a majority of the minority also say that ALPA should resist the change in retirement age????

Yes... ALPA should resist the change. However another question was.. if ALPA cannot stop the change, should ALPA work with the changes or fight it steadfast? (my words). (which way is most influential and effective? Having a seat at the table of change or not being invited to the meeting of change?)

Recall ALPA, APA, SWAPA are unions. They are not lawmakers. They can only influence the lawmakers.

Also, why does ALPA propose nothing about mitigating the windfall to the pilots who will turn 60 next year, ie phasing in the rules change??? Lastly, why does a "Blue Ribbon Panel" on the retirement age change consist of like 9 captains and one FO. I'm pretty sure the makeup of ALPA is closer to 50/50. I think we all know the reason, and it is not going to be easy to convince the FO ALPA membership that they were not just bent over and handed a ******************** sandwich on which they will dine the remainder of their careers.
Luv

fair enough... but I don't think any member has much to say if they didn't particapte:

I am willing to bet that the average ALPA member did not:

1. particapte in the Age 60 survey. The first and SECOND one.

2. participate in the LEC elections which in turn sent the delegates to the BOD who elected Prater. Recall Duane W. was pro age 60 and he had the CapHill contacts. If anyone could have kept age 60 it was DW. But everyone was too pissed and had to have change. They had to kick out DW.

3. Participate in US Congressional elections. Yet these congressmen are drafting the Age law and voting on it.


So the age 60 thing is supposed to go "the way the membership" wants it but they don't want to particapte.

Let me put it this way. You don't write a Xmas wish list, and on Xmas morn you don't get what you want, and it's Santa's fault.... get real.

But the whiney retort is big deal.... non particaption is the status quo.... who cares!!

 

[V-STALL]

:bawling: I don't want to work past 55- let alone another 10 years!

 

[sleeves]

The younger pilots just got their butts handed to them. This is what happens when one only cries on some message board and pays dues. The older group bought their own lobbyist, created groups for their cause, had a very organized approach to effect their change.

If you do not want this kind of stuff happing in the future then get involved. Don't call your rep, become one. Sending your congressmen a letter does almost nothing. You have to have an organized approach. Most cannot give up the time, it would eat into their flightinfo surfing.

 

[filejw]

No chance of being forced to work over 60 unless the IRS changes some pension rules, like forcing penalties on what may now be called early retirement(60).

 

[FlyByNight1]

talked to a senators office this morning. They said this bill is in three places right now, one of which is a stand alone bill as you know- this is to assure passage. According to this senators office, the bill has full support in the senate and will pass. However, they said it will probably not be until mid January some time.

 

[tomgoodman]

Precedents?

No chance of being forced to work over 60 unless the IRS changes some pension rules, like forcing penalties on what may now be called early retirement(60).

That's a real possibility. According to PBGC, Social Security, and Medicare rules, the Feds already consider age 60 to be an early retirement.

 

[PinnacleDude]

My Dad used to call ALPA "The Captains union". Nothing has changed since the old days, except Prater and the top echelon will get to enjoy their exorbitant and outrageous ALPA salaries for another 5 years.

The real problem is that they are not exorbitant or outrageous salaries. When a SWA 737 Captain makes more than Major Airline Widebody Captains, something is seriously wrong. SWA 73 Captains should probably make more, but the pay at the major airlines is outrageously low.

Prater has allowed this to become a tremendous distraction from fixing the above.

 

[nimtz]

ONE LAST thing to for SWA guys remeber SWAPA was for the age 65...

But they had all those wondrous years of slapping Herb on the back and agreeing they didn't need a retirement package like the guys at American.

 

[SpoolDaddy]

Rez, Luv, Flopgut,

All great replies, and Rez, your consistent stance that democracy is not a spectator sport is valid, but from where I sit I really have seen a massive increase in participation in the last 18 months due to the age issue. Unfortunately, ALPA has felt more like a republic than a democracy of late.

Here are a couple of comebacks I have for ALPA:

1. If pilots are allowed to work to 65 and a major reason for this as stated by Capt Prater is due to the post-911 economic meltdown... and we ALPA pilots are ALL about taking care of our brothers.... then any former pilot under 65 who has lost a pension MUST be eligible to be retrained and brought back on the property OR (if this proposal would crush a seniority list, result in furlough, massive training cost, etc) 50% of all wages earned past age 60 go to the ALPA retirees lost-pension fund.

2. No ALPA member works past age 60 on a seniority list that has any furloughed members, unless those furloughees have "passed" on a recall.

3. Over age 60 pilots must transition to the right seat, just as current over-60 pilots must transition to an engineer position (where applicable). This maintains equitable career/seat progression and ensures that one crew-member will be under-60 as required. Most importantly, we keep all that super-safe experience in the cockpit (between naps, anyway) so that the rest of us can still manage to find the airfield, we couldn't have done it without them.

Wow, my Boston-sarcastic roots started showing,
anyway, some thoughts I promise to communicate to my ALPA rep., SD

 

[Flopgut]

Spool I think anything is on the table. B scale wages, half votes, fences, caveates, etc. It's been done before. We've got the majority of votes, let's use it.

 

[Skank]

I've heard that the medical requirements would be a lot harder to pass. So all those old farts would lose there medicals anyways. Anyone else hear about the additional restrictions on the medicals?

I've heard that age discrimination is illegal.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes... ALPA should resist the change. However another question was.. if ALPA cannot stop the change, should ALPA work with the changes or fight it steadfast? (my words). (which way is most influential and effective? Having a seat at the table of change or not being invited to the meeting of change?)

True, but that's not an issue here. Who was the Congressman who introduced this stand-alone bill? James Oberstar, a politician that is as close to a sure thing for ALPA as can ever be hoped for. He is quite possibly the Association's best friend on Cap Hill. Let's just be honest here, Rez: the fact is, Oberstar never would have introduced this bill if Darth Prater had gone to him and told him that the Association was opposed. ALPA has far more pull with Oberstar than any of the pro-change lobbyists. The fact that Oberstar was the one to finally push this through as an independent bill is a clear signal to everyone that this was no longer "something that couldn't be avoided," this is actually something that was requested by Prater or others within ALPA of Congressmen Oberstar. In other words, Prater knows that the membership doesn't want this, but he forced it down their throats anyway using Oberstar to do his dirty work. Prater is self-centered jackass that doesn't give two sh*&s about what the membership thinks about this issue. As far as I'm concerned, he should be recalled.

 

[vetrider]

I've heard that age discrimination is illegal.

Yeah, the new standards will be for everyone. Out of shape folks of all ages will get to retire early now.

Who knows what they will come up with, actually. But I'm not so sure I'd count on the status quo as far as medicals.

 

[jke406]

Out of shape folks of all ages will get to retire early now.
=quote]

wouldn't this affect at least 80% of airline pilots?

 

[vetrider]

Out of shape folks of all ages will get to retire early now.
=quote]

wouldn't this affect at least 80% of airline pilots?

Yes it would by the looks of it. Make that really out of shape folks of all ages will get to retire early.

Alot of guys say that they don't smoke and drink like their elders did, and that they workout and such, but thats only part of the story I think. The other part is the lousy food and supersize portions of absolute garbage the average American eats these days. One thing replaces another.

That said, many guys approaching 60 are obviously good for more years. I'm actually for no age limit and a real physical, even being the mindful of the old adage be careful what you wish for.

It will all come out in the wash, one way or another.

 

[FDJ2]

I've heard that the medical requirements would be a lot harder to pass. So all those old farts would lose there medicals anyways. Anyone else hear about the additional restrictions on the medicals?

There are no additional restrictions on the medicals other than a line check every 6 months for those over 60.

‘‘(1) MEDICAL EXAMINATIONS AND STANDARDS.—Except as provided by paragraph (2), a person serving as a pilot for an air carrier engaged in covered operations shall not be subject to different medical standards, or different, greater, or more frequent medical examinations, on account of age unless the Secretary determines (based on data received or studies published after the date of enactment of this section) that different medical standards, or different, greater, or more frequent medical examinations, are needed to ensure an adequate level of safety in flight.

(2) LINE EVALUATIONS.—Not later than 6 months after the date of enactment of this section, and every 6 months thereafter, an air carrier engaged in covered operations shall evaluate the performance of each pilot of the air carrier who has attained 60 years of age through a line check of such pilot. Notwithstanding the preceding sentence, an air carrier shall not be required to conduct for a 6- month period a line check under this paragraph of a pilot serving as second-in-command if the pilot has undergone a regularly scheduled simulator evaluation during that period.

 

[FDJ2]

Something along the lines of why we ignored the wishes of the majority of our members, couched that in the cloak of "we need to be involved with the process cause it's gonna happen anyway."

You might want to consider that ALPA did have to be involved in the process because it was going to happen anyway. 390-0.

ALPA also polled the membership on what it should do if it became apparent age 60 would change.

The end result is it passed 390-0, and it passed with many of the stipulations ALPA pilots demanded, such as not allowing retired pilots to sue and get back their seniority numbers back, such as no changes to the medical standards, etc.

Do you truly think that ALPA, which only collects PAC money from 14% of its membership, could prevent a unanimous landslide of 390-0.

Even after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor Congress couldn't pass a unanimous vote to declare war.

 

[PCL_128]

FDJ, the bill wouldn't have come forward as stand-alone legislation in the first place if ALPA's buddy Oberstar didn't bring it to the floor. This happened because Prater pushed it. It wasn't "apparent" that it was going to change anyway. This could have been delayed for years to come.

 

[hmmm]

How much longer can we hope for. Just because it will/may pass senate doesn't FAA have to implement it into the rule books.