Age 63????

[skydash]

Age 60

If some schmuck lawmaker says I HAVE to retire at 60.....then let's make it "fair" across the board.
1) Make EVERY doctor retire at 60! They certainly have your life in their hands if they have you on a table getting ready to take out your spleen!
2) Every Senator and Congressman! They CERTAINLY do things that can affect you life(and liveleyhood).
3) Every driver at 60!! God knows they can't be trusted with their responses deteriorating and all......
"Hard cases make BAD law"

 

[FoxHunter]

If I'm correct, raising the RETIREMENT AGE TO 63 only hurts people with PENSIONS correct??

So if you work at a Jet Blue, Southwest etc it doesn't hurt you at all. It actually helps you have another option of working more if you see that your INVESTMENTS haven't lived up to what you thought they would. I am actually for it since I don't work for a company with a PENSION.

I also don't plan on going to an airline with a pension anyways since those companies all seem to be in trouble financially. The people with pensions at those airlines are in great risk of losing them, and they all seem to be losing their regular pay anyways becoming LCCs themselves. The whole industry is changing.

Besides I bet if US Airways survives, the pilots there will be happy to be able to work a few more years, so they can STASH some CASH for their retirement, since their PENSIONS WERE ROBBED FROM THEM. The same will probably be said for United pilots soon UNFORTUNATELY.

JET

Actually raising the retirement age helps those with a Defined Benefit Pension Plan. With the exception of FDX and UPS all the Majors have a serious underfunding problem with pensions.

At FedEx the ALPA leadership have never asked the question. The offical MEC line is in support of keeping Age 60. You never want to ask the question if you can't accept the answer.

 

[I'm42]

I plan on retiring long before 60 if I can afford it. I also don't plan on counting on any sort of retirement plan that I don't manage myself. I still have decades before I reach 60, so I CAN retire early. I think 60 is reasonable, based on most of the pilots that are older than 50 that I've flown with....only ONE, who was in his 80s by the way, was competent enough to get past the Age 60 Rule, and he was still having a great time in his own plane -- why bother working when you're that old, even if you live well past 100!!

 

[FN FAL]

Hey guys,

A couple of things to consider...

1) If they raise it to 63, you can bet your bottom dollar that all those guys from 60-63 are going to be clamoring to get their jobs back. So whether you are at UPS, NWA, UAL, AAI, SWA or whoever, you could see YOUR number slide BACKWARDS a significant amount (maybe even into the hundreds, adding to any furloughs), PLUS the stagnation that will follow.

If you think that the argument that "they are already retired" will hold any weight, you will be sorely mistaken.

2) You can also bet cash money that the FAA will REQUIRE some sort of cognative testing to begin around 50-55. Chances are you won't make it to 60, let alone 63 because the FAA thinks you are too "slow" with whatever wack-a-doodle testing they come up with (probably that weird color test they used to give a PDT would be a good start).

Psych stuff is VERY difficult to objectively refute. Ask Bob Hoover how it went when they were out to get them. Better make sure your loss-of-medical insurance is paid up.

Be carefull what you wish for...

Nu

What if we do it this way?

When you go to get hired by an airline, you negotiate your salary like a ball player, when you don't produce anymore...you don't get renewed.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

What if we do it this way?

When you go to get hired by an airline, you negotiate your salary like a ball player, when you don't produce anymore...you don't get renewed.

They pay me a cool million a year, I would be more than willing to agree to a contract like that.

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

The other thing to consider is that airlines have set up the "A" plan to compensate pilots for the break between age 60 manditory retirment and the Social security age of 64 or 65 or whatever age it is. Once (if) the rule is changed. Kiss that goodbye... Another selfish act contributed by the ole timers... Thanks guys. I really didnt want to retire at age 60, Id rather work till I drop dead and that old "A" plan, didnt need that either. Im glad 80%-90% of the entire professional pilot work force could sacrafice our all to suit you few... And if you say that I can retire at age 60 if I want, It doesnt hold water. Im sure there will be a penilty for early retirment. This is kinda like the guy who doesnt want the word GOD in the the National Anthem, Sure, he has his rights, but should 99.99% of all Americans have to sacrifice so that this guys rights arent walked on... NO!!!!!!

Also, In case anyone isnt paying attention, Im just a line pilot at UPS. I dont get to make really big decisions around here. So when you tell me not to tell you when to retire, We'll thats slightly abouve my pay grade... The FAA, Now there telling you when to retire... Bi1ch to them, I dont want to hear it. Im just a supporter of the current age 60 rule. Change the rule to fit a few in the minority and end up screwing the rest of the 80%... Dont forget, Its all about you!!!

 

[FoxHunter]

The other thing to consider is that airlines have set up the "A" plan to compensate pilots for the break between age 60 manditory retirment and the Social security age of 64 or 65 or whatever age it is. Once (if) the rule is changed. Kiss that goodbye... Another selfish act contributed by the ole timers... Thanks guys. I really didnt want to retire at age 60, Id rather work till I drop dead and that old "A" plan, didnt need that either. Im glad 80%-90% of the entire professional pilot work force could sacrafice our all to suit you few... And if you say that I can retire at age 60 if I want, It doesnt hold water. Im sure there will be a penilty for early retirment. This is kinda like the guy who doesnt want the word GOD in the the National Anthem, Sure, he has his rights, but should 99.99% of all Americans have to sacrifice so that this guys rights arent walked on... NO!!!!!!

Also, In case anyone isnt paying attention, Im just a line pilot at UPS. I dont get to make really big decisions around here. So when you tell me not to tell you when to retire, We'll thats slightly abouve my pay grade... The FAA, Now there telling you when to retire... Bi1ch to them, I dont want to hear it. Im just a supporter of the current age 60 rule. Change the rule to fit a few in the minority and end up screwing the rest of the 80%... Dont forget, Its all about you!!!

BIGBROWNDC8,

You seem to be a little confused with A plans and B plans. You had better check on your Social Security also. My parents could get the full benefit at age 65, I'll have to wait for 66, guess when you get it?

 

[pilotyip]

Social Security

Some details for those uninformed. I assume brownDC8 was born in 1964. He/she said he/she was 20 years away from age 60. I was born in 1943, I do not quality for full SS until age 66, my sister was born in 1953, and she does not quality for full SS until age 67. I think a 1964 b'day might wait until age 68. Now you can still draw reduced, and now days a greatly reduced SS, at age 62. For all those pilots not covered by a pension plan or those who worked for EAL, PA or some other place and thought they would be covered, it is a long time from age 60 to age 66 or better. UPS has a great union, they can still mandate full retirement at age 60 or 58 or whatever they want to bargain for. However, for those who become unemployed at age 60 because of a political deal between friends when I was 14 years old, it is a bad deal. Not all of us were lucky enough to have a job at UPS. In addition, in spite of brownDC8 thinks there is an element of luck in getting those great jobs that has nothing to do with skill or desire.

 

[LAZYB]

There you go...

Not all of us were lucky enough to have a job at UPS. In addition, in spite of brownDC8 thinks there is an element of luck in getting those great jobs that has nothing to do with skill or desire.

I got mine...

BigBrownOne it's called discrimination.

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

First off. How do you get from what Ive said in my post that I dont think Im lucky to be at UPS. I was the luckiest SOB out there, believe me. I know about interviews, Ive been to plenty, Forget the regionals, there were too many interviews to count, but at the majors, I got hired at three majors and turned down by Two. If Id taken any of the jobs at any of the other carriers Id be on the street. Lets not get carried away with the whole "Lucky to be at UPS thing", I know Im lucky but the truth be told, before 9/11 all my friends thought I was crazy to take a job at UPS v/s AA, but I did. I dont know why I did, but I did. It was luck and I know it...

About the A plan or the B plan, whichever, (hell, its late!!! give me a break) Its true regarding whichever plan it is. Once the bar is lifted, there will be no age for retirement. Once that happens, most if not all Companies will push to get rid of the A Plan ir B plan.

As far as when Ill be able to recieve my SS bennies, Hell, I dont know... If I have to work till Im 68 or 72 like all you guys want us to be able to do, It wont matter. Ill probably drop dead the day before I retire anyway.

Cya Guys...

 

[350DRIVER]

I am confident the law makers can and will shoot this down (once again), I have faith in them to a certain degree and I hope they realize this change will do nothing with regards to what is "best". This was shot down many times in the past and hopefully history will repeat itself a g a i n. There is absolutely no reason to up the age to 63 except for those who are nearing the age and cannot retire due to mismanaged funds, lack of, etc.

If one chooses to want to fly beyond 60 then go to ExecJet, Flight Options, or the many other places that would be more than happy and willing to hire a 60+ guy. . The reasons why anyone could possibly want to fly past 60 as a "job" is beyond my wildest imagination, I was never able to see the reasoning behind this.

You only live once and the body is only going to work for X amount of years as advertised so "retire" and enjoy your remaining years on this planet with family, friends, and loved ones. Take a look at the average life span here in the states, the majority surely will not see 100, probably not even 90, 80 possibly if you are healthy and stay in good shape, 70 the body slows down and you are limited to activity. . Let's get real folks, something is wrong with the "needing" to increase this age regulation. The whole "age discrimination" issue is also complete BS, I would be willing to bet any amount of money that IF (which hopefully will not be the case) the age would be changed to 63 many would still find fault and call it "age discrimination" once again, it is a loose loose situation. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. There is no more or any less of a significance between 63, 65, 70, so this "63" proposed change is to imply what?. Anything after 65 the pilot will no longer be fit enough to fly? Come on.. We are looking at a possible change that will only add to this whole "age discrimination" issue. This will solve absolutely nothing.


The majority that are in favor of this change are the guys who are in their 50's who have nothing else to do other than to fly. I don't get it, if you are that much financially strapped then surely 3 more years ain't going to make a whole lot of difference here. . A lot of this "fight'' is coming solely out of selfishness and not knowing when to say enough is enough. Allow the others to move up the ranks, advance, etc and to be able to make a living in this profession that Mr. 60 was able to do for the past 30-35 years.

The medicals are a joke, you are simply being counted on to come forward with any medical problems that you are currently (or have) had in the past, a sick monkey with a bleeding ulcer could probably hold a first class. I love how those people try and justify this by saying "as long as I can hold that medical" then I am perfectly fit to fly, blah, blah, blah, .... complete BS $$... It would probably take some sort of effort to even fail one of these medicals in the first place. The reflexes, mind and body starts to slow down as one ages, no one will defy the aging process no matter how good of shape you may be in.


Let the politics continue to play here. In due time hopefully the correct call will be made and no 63 will ever become a reality. I find it absolutely insane in every way when you have people whining and continuing to fight this. Why 63? Hell, why not just round up to 65 or 70?. That "63" represents nothing and the guys who are 62 will soon be pushing for 65. The older group of jet jocks will never be happy no matter what the age may be. As the ole saying goes, "if it ain't broke then don't fix it". Nothing is broke here, this is about greed and not knowing when enough is enough and when to say "good-bye" and adios to this industry.

If I have to fly one day past 60 then I surely screwed and fukced many things up over the years.

I sure hope this change will never be implemented....

History fortunately is on our side with regards to this issue....

3 5 0

 

[FoxHunter]

Dear 350DRIVER,

Happy your confident the law will not change. I realize the pilots of USAIR, UAL, DAL, NWA are guilty of poor retirement planning in your eyes. Some time in the future, when you start to mature, and possibly get hired as an airline pilot you may even start to understand why some of us would like to continue past age 60.

You are correct that that age 63 will not pass. It will probably be 65 or 66 if there is any age at all. Do you really think Congress will want to use taxpayer money when all these retirement funds are terminated and turned over to the PBGC.

Why would I like to continue? Number one reason is that I still enjoy flying. You mention other job options after age 60. Why would I want to give up a job that I earn more in one month than I would in a year at the options you mention? No young man, I plan to fly until I stop enjoying it, or my health requires me to quit. Since I run 25+ miles every week you can see that I'm working hard to stick around as long as possible.

Hope your half as lucky as I've been in this flying business.

 

[Boeingman]

Dear 350DRIVER,

Happy your confident the law will not change. I realize the pilots of USAIR, UAL, DAL, NWA are guilty of poor retirement planning in your eyes. Some time in the future, when you start to mature, and possibly get hired as an airline pilot you may even start to understand why some of us would like to continue past age 60.

You are correct that that age 63 will not pass. It will probably be 65 or 66 if there is any age at all. Do you really think Congress will want to use taxpayer money when all these retirement funds are terminated and turned over to the PBGC.

Why would I like to continue? Number one reason is that I still enjoy flying. You mention other job options after age 60. Why would I want to give up a job that I earn more in one month than I would in a year at the options you mention? No young man, I plan to fly until I stop enjoying it, or my health requires me to quit. Since I run 25+ miles every week you can see that I'm working hard to stick around as long as possible.

Hope your half as lucky as I've been in this flying business.

For those who are whining about this extension, re read the above gentleman's comments about the PBGC and retirement funding. It's all about money folks. And when the lawmakers figure out there is a no cost method to allieviate the funding problems at the PBGC they will extend the retirement age. No doubt about it.

With the forthcoming collapse of USAir, and I personally believe that UAL will vanish (eventually) the burden of these carriers pension terminations will be the final nail in this issue. You can bet your last dollar the remaining legacy carriers will cry wolf and eventually do away with their plans to remain "competitive" If more distressed terminations occur. And they will. The A & B fund Retirement plans of the old days are gone forever.

For those that assume I personally want to fly past 60, I don't need the money but many do. Aside from the discrimination issue (it is) Uncle Sam needs to allow SS and medicare benefits when you are forced to retire. Some of you youngsters will have to wait until your 68 - 70 in the coming years for these to kick in.

 

[FN FAL]

What's even more funnier is that the anti's will be the ones pushing for the law to change in their favor once they hit 50 and realize they only got so long to go before they gotta be asked to leave.

This issue goes beyond the legacy carriers and the regional pukes. Our company is about to go on the journey to getting a 121 certificate and ATR's, so all of the sudden we get stuck with this age 60 retirement rule. My staying till 65 doesn't affect none of you guys at all. Neither does it at any of the other cargo contractors out there that offer positions good enough to stay for a career.

As with most people that are going to stay in these types of 121 careers that are not at legacy carriers where people make MILLIONS during their stay, some of us are just starting to get where the money is good enough to make house payments halfway through our careers.

I think people that took care of their health and have active minds, should not be forced out by some arbitrary age limit specified by the government. IF the government is going to push me out of my job at age 60, they better have some way of compensating me for age descrimination.

 

[SLFLYHI]

I heard that ALPA has reversed its position on the age 60 subject and that it will go to 63...due to UAL guys losing a lot of money now.......supposedly a done deal for jan. 1, 2005......sucks if true.

ALPA can reverse it's opinion all day long....it's the FAA that still has to approve the change. It took 7 years to rewrite Part 61, about 5 years to come up with Subpart K (rules for fractionals), and they are currently rewriting FAR Part 135. Even if ALPA comes out in full, 100% support of Age 63, I wouldn't go cashing those checks just yet. The FAA moves at glacial speed and this topic wouldn't even be in the top 10 to look at.

Good Luck age 55+ guys

 

[FoxHunter]

ALPA can reverse it's opinion all day long....it's the FAA that still has to approve the change. It took 7 years to rewrite Part 61, about 5 years to come up with Subpart K (rules for fractionals), and they are currently rewriting FAR Part 135. Even if ALPA comes out in full, 100% support of Age 63, I wouldn't go cashing those checks just yet. The FAA moves at glacial speed and this topic wouldn't even be in the top 10 to look at.

Good Luck age 55+ guys

No it is Congress that will mandate the change. It almost passed last year with ALPA opposition and their political infuence. You should recall why we have TCAS today. Not because the FAA wanted it, they opposed it. Congress mandated it.

 

[350DRIVER]

Dear 350DRIVER,

Happy your confident the law will not change. I realize the pilots of USAIR, UAL, DAL, NWA are guilty of poor retirement planning in your eyes. Some time in the future, when you start to mature, and possibly get hired as an airline pilot you may even start to understand why some of us would like to continue past age 60.

You are correct that that age 63 will not pass. It will probably be 65 or 66 if there is any age at all. Do you really think Congress will want to use taxpayer money when all these retirement funds are terminated and turned over to the PBGC.

Why would I like to continue? Number one reason is that I still enjoy flying. You mention other job options after age 60. Why would I want to give up a job that I earn more in one month than I would in a year at the options you mention? No young man, I plan to fly until I stop enjoying it, or my health requires me to quit. Since I run 25+ miles every week you can see that I'm working hard to stick around as long as possible.

Hope your half as lucky as I've been in this flying business.

Mr. FoxHunter,

Whatever floats your boat my friend,. I as well as many others do not wish to have to fly for compensation after the age of 60, pretty simple. You must have very little to do to occupy your time when you are off. Most that are in the 50 to 60 range look forward to being able to retire and enjoy the "good life" that they worked so hard and for many years to be able to obtain. You have no idea how happy it makes me feel that you run 25+ miles every week! ! . "wow", you must be in some awesome shape, I also assume you are able to defy the aging process with such a dedicated workout routine?. I am glad you got to where you are today by "luck" as you put it, fortunately I have needed very little thus far and won't be looking to get "lucky" anytime soon. Sometimes it is better to be good versus being lucky.

I hope you fly till you are 90 if that is what you want to do, what a
retirement!! !!.

Happy your confident the law will not change. I realize the pilots of USAIR, UAL, DAL, NWA are guilty of poor retirement planning in your eyes.

May I make a suggestion?. If you want to put words in one's mouth then include all carriers such as AirTran, Frontier, AWA, Alaska, etc, etc. I don't recall where I made any mention that would directly tie "mismanaged" funds directly to those who are at Airways, DAL, UAL, or NWA.

good luck,

3 5 0

 

[SLFLYHI]

No it is Congress that will mandate the change. It almost passed last year with ALPA opposition and their political infuence. You should recall why we have TCAS today. Not because the FAA wanted it, they opposed it. Congress mandated it.

Ok, let's shine the light on this one - we have a Republican controlled Congress (i.e. pro business) and a Republican White House. Even IF Kerry wins in November, chances are we will still have a Republican Congress. So, assuming this to be the case, with the airlines sinking further everyday, and their lobbyists pressing hard for any help Congress can give, why would a pro-business Congress change a law that has stood for over 50 years that will hurt the airlines financially by keeping these guys on payroll at high salaries for 3 more years?

I don't see it happening. The support in Congress from pro-pilot advocates like Inhofe, Duncan, etc., aren't nearly enough to push this through when every airline will say "no thanks"

Flame away.

 

[FoxHunter]

Ok, let's shine the light on this one - we have a Republican controlled Congress (i.e. pro business) and a Republican White House. Even IF Kerry wins in November, chances are we will still have a Republican Congress. So, assuming this to be the case, with the airlines sinking further everyday, and their lobbyists pressing hard for any help Congress can give, why would a pro-business Congress change a law that has stood for over 50 years that will hurt the airlines financially by keeping these guys on payroll at high salaries for 3 more years?

I don't see it happening. The support in Congress from pro-pilot advocates like Inhofe, Duncan, etc., aren't nearly enough to push this through when every airline will say "no thanks"

Flame away.

No flame intended. Fact, the 12 year F/O upgraded to Captain same aircraft gets the same pay per hour as the 59 year old Captain that has 35 years service. That happens to be the ALPA standard contract. No extra high pay for the old guys. Sorry

 

[FoxHunter]

Mr. FoxHunter,

Whatever floats your boat my friend,. I as well as many others do not wish to have to fly for compensation after the age of 60, pretty simple. You must have very little to do to occupy your time when you are off. Most that are in the 50 to 60 range look forward to being able to retire and enjoy the "good life" that they worked so hard and for many years to be able to obtain. You have no idea how happy it makes me feel that you run 25+ miles every week! ! . "wow", you must be in some awesome shape, I also assume you are able to defy the aging process with such a dedicated workout routine?. I am glad you got to where you are today by "luck" as you put it, fortunately I have needed very little thus far and won't be looking to get "lucky" anytime soon. Sometimes it is better to be good versus being lucky.

I hope you fly till you are 90 if that is what you want to do, what a
retirement!! !!.



May I make a suggestion?. If you want to put words in one's mouth then include all carriers such as AirTran, Frontier, AWA, Alaska, etc, etc. I don't recall where I made any mention that would directly tie "mismanaged" funds directly to those who are at Airways, DAL, UAL, or NWA.

good luck,

3 5 0

I didn't mention AirTran, Frontier, AWA plus others because they don't have an defined benefit pension.

Sorry your so misinformed.