Age 60 legislation is moving fast as of today

[LearAv8r]

Lear quit when you want and let those that want to/are willing to, work. That way everyone is happy. I will spend my time as an FO with a smile on my face knowing that I will put a million bucks in my pocket with the extra five yrs... I think most of the guys I know at SWA (Capts) have a higher integrity level than you give them credit for. I imagine there are a few who will call in sick to lessen their work loads but there are problem children in every line of work. I happen to like flying for SWA. It is a great change from my last career. I will keep working because I know how bored I got during my 2.5 yr retirement while I was waiting to join SWA. I hope your retirement is at your option and his long and happy.

I think that some are taking me wrong on this issue. There are serious consequences that will happen when this is changed. This had nothing to do with SWA (company). I too enjoy my job, the people I work with and overall the lifestyle. I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

I am a little dismayed at how this appears to be played out. Your are 100% correct. I can leave at age 60 if I so desire but from the looks of it that probably won't happen. Why?...well mainly because the rules will be changed and the retirement plan that I have been planning all along will have to change as well.

I know that you think that the extra million bucks that you can put in your pocket by working an x-tra five years is great and it is, but your delayed upgrade plus the compounding at say 20 years of that lost money (invested) you could have earned from the upgrade in not replaceable.

There is a lot to be considered..........what will be will be........

 

[Freight Dog]

I can see why SWA guys are all for raising the age to 65. They're getting 100 airplanes every 36 months, 35 737-700's in 2007 alone. The movement is definitely happening at LUV.

Now let's take that away... Let's say you stagnated, and instead of getting 100 new airplanes every 36 months, you were in fact losing aircraft and had pilots on furlough.

Guarantee you Ben, you would be singing a completely different tune.

 

[El Pobre]

Let the pink slips (furloughs) start coming.... There are still 1000's of pilots who were the most affected by 9/11 still furloughed, and many that have just gotten hired will probably be getting the boot again. They will continue on the street while a few fat lazy greedy cats work till they drop because they couldn't properly plan a retirement on 200k a year, or have no other life/interests. Having researched the actuarial tables for pilots that fly until 65, I wish then all a short 1.5 year retirement before they keel over.

 

[m80drvr]

Agreed. Most pilots don't live too long after retirement for many reasons. Your wives will be happy that you gave her a few extra "Millions" to spend on the pool boy. Good going guys!!!!!!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

The Age 65 rule will hurt SWA in a big way that the company has not or is not recognizing. As far as UPS, FedEX and others I can only imagine they will use it against u in terms of your retirement benefits. At SWA though, there is no pension but only what you have saved. And believe me, there are some very well to do Capts there that could easily retire at 60.

So why would they not want to retire at 60 and stay on till 65. The only reason is health care and the ability to hold the very best line. If you leave at 60 guess what you're on your own for helath care. It'll cost you about 1800 per month to pay your own health care till 65. Why would anyone do that?????

Tell you what is going to happen, a guy will keep working a regular line until say 62. He's got it good and bids his 3 three days a month plus his one two day. He's making 230K but something is a little bit wrong. He wants some of his own time and frankly no one should blame him. He's earned it. So it easy, he'll drop a trip and then call in sick for a trip. After all is said and done, he's taken a pay cut down to 160K a year but he's only working 6 days a month. Not a bad part time job! It will happen and the older guys that have saved up all that sick pay, figuring they will retire in at 60 will use it to the max. You will have a very unproductive older labor force. They can't help it, when you get 62/63 a lot of people change and want to spend time doing what they want and not sitting in a hotel in Vegas. I've seen it in my father and his friends. It's just the way it is. But, if you can work 6 days a month and make 160K everybody in there righ mind will do it. Fact of life here.

The other issue coming will be with guys losing there medicals on purpose. That's right on purpose. If you don't think someone who is burned out at 62-63 wouldn't consider it, you're nuts. Who gets to pay for that? Who do you think.

I'ts not that I'm against the 65 rule, I just don't want to see companies and the younger workers get screwed. This rule needs to come with some contract adjustments if folks want to retire early. If it doens't companies and workers are going to find it kinda sh!tty. Oh well, at least the older guy makes out.

You Nailed it! I totally agree.

BBB

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Bwaaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaaa! Don't worry, airline management will make it so we are forced to work till 65. At UPS, the penalty for retiring 5 years early is huge. I am sure over time it will be that way when you retire at 60. I am sure airline management is creaming in their pants at the thought of how they can use this 65 thing to their advantage. They just can't wait till we step on our weenies.....AGAIN!

I hope to be set by 40....hope is the key word. Good luck with the 55 thing bro.

I also agree with you Mega... you can bet there will be a pension penalty in the future for retiring prior to the "normal" retirement age of 65 (if this passes). It'll take a contract or two to undo, but you can bet on it, IMO.

Your colorful language... "creaming in their pants"?

BBB

 

[michael707767]

I will spend my time as an FO with a smile on my face knowing that I will put a million bucks in my pocket with the extra five yrs....

I saw a study recently that showed age 65 will actually cost most FOs retirement money. The stagnation caused by age 65 will mean you can put less money away today for retirement. Given the time value of money, working an extra five years will not make up for all the lost compound interest your extra money would have accrued if you had been able to move up and/or upgrade five years earlier.

 

[AA717driver]

I saw a study recently that showed age 65 will actually cost most FOs retirement money. The stagnation caused by age 65 will mean you can put less money away today for retirement. Given the time value of money, working an extra five years will not make up for all the lost compound interest your extra money would have accrued if you had been able to move up and/or upgrade five years earlier.

But you start drawing on it 5 years earlier. Did they give an example of how much less would be contributed?

Raising the age to 65 is an unforseen event that will penalize the younger pilots just as the loss of pensions/furlough later in the career of some of the older pilots penalized them. Both events are unfortunate and not good for pilots as a whole. TC

P.S.--I know very few pilots who are still flying who are "on their 4th wife". Those I know who need to work past 60 are in that circumstance because of events no one could have forseen 6 years ago. Can we try to keep the emotion out of this?

 

[Benhuntn]

I can't speak for your company but at SWA it will add 12-16 months for upgrade. So I did some math I will work a yr at 6th yr pay and a yr at 7th yr pay.... that is 107/108 per trip. For that sacrifice I will get 5 yrs at 160+ per trip. I ave 110 trips per month. It is easy to see that here at SWA farsighted FO's should hold their water and bide their time for the 16 months the payoff is in the end.

 

[GuppyWN]

Well you can thank SWAPA and a bunch of old guys for letting you work longer instead of trying to put efforts into a decent retirement.

I guess I'm guilty by association. Our polls just opened today on a vote whether to have our union continue their efforts to repeal age 60.

I VOTED NO! Again. For the second time since I was hired.

Gup

 

[Falconjet]

Ben: Even if I agreed with your assertion that the age 60 change would "only" add 12-16 months to your upgrade, you will still have to work 5 extra years to make 3.3 to 4 years worth of Captain's pay. I wouldn't count on a year and a half delay, I'd predict more like at least 3. With that assumption, you will have to work and extra 5 years to make 2 years worth of Captain's pay.

In either case, you are going to have to work longer to make a partial recovery of your efforts, while the guys who are already Captains will get another 5 years with full Captain's pay.

Meanwhile, the furloughed guys sit out on the sidelines another couple of years.

It might be good for you, it might be great for the senior guys, but it is a knife right in the back for all of our brothers and sisters on furlough.

FJ

 

[Falconjet]

Gup: You chose wisely.

I think it will be very interesting to see how the vote at SW turns out.

FJ

 

[capt. megadeth]

Your colorful language... "creaming in their pants"?

BBB

I knew you'd like that.

 

[FoxHunter]

This is already happening. The over-60 crowd on our DC10 & 727 panels call in sick an average of SEVEN TIMES more than the rest.

I spent a year of hell on DC10 reserve. I'd get short-called at least twice a month - always at midnight for a ~2:30 am duty in, always to wherever it was raining or snowing. Only time I saw Puerto Rico was when there was a hurricane in the vicinity....


I'll say this one more time: there are those who will be captains for 5 more years, and the rest of us will be f/o's for 5 more years, or s/o's, or not employed.....

Yep, and most guys that have no intention of flying past age 60 start burning thir sick bank at age 55. I understand JL has said a large percentage are not available after age 57.:beer: I guess they would prefer to use their sick bank at Captains pay, not S/Os.

 

[Peanut gallery]

104 Rule

Peanut Gallery, what's a 104 rule? I did a search, but no joy. Also, can you reveal your source?
Thanks.


The 104 rule is that the combined age of the two front seat pilots must not exceed 104 years if one crewmember is over 60. I do some legal work on the side and was in a consultation yesterday along with a fellow "expert witness" that spent the last two years working on the age 60 due dilligence for the Feds. He recieved the call yesterday from Washington, it could happen quick.

 

[Andy]

The 104 rule is that the combined age of the two front seat pilots must not exceed 104 years if one crewmember is over 60. I do some legal work on the side and was in a consultation yesterday along with a fellow "expert witness" that spent the last two years working on the age 60 due dilligence for the Feds. He recieved the call yesterday from Washington, it could happen quick.

Nice. Is it April first?

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

This is already happening. The over-60 crowd on our DC10 & 727 panels call in sick an average of SEVEN TIMES more than the rest.

I spent a year of hell on DC10 reserve. I'd get short-called at least twice a month - always at midnight for a ~2:30 am duty in, always to wherever it was raining or snowing. Only time I saw Puerto Rico was when there was a hurricane in the vicinity....


I'll say this one more time: there are those who will be captains for 5 more years, and the rest of us will be f/o's for 5 more years, or s/o's, or not employed.....

Both K-Mart and Huck,

You both have hit the nail on the head. Yesterday our APA President was discussing sick leave (it’s a huge issue currently with our VP of Flight). He showed how sick leave spikes starting at age 58 and continues all the way to 60. American’s management is well aware of this fact. It’s probably the reason they have stayed mostly neutral on the subject since they realized it will happen at all the other carriers so it’s probably a zero sum game for them. There is also data from our old two-stripers that flew into their 70’s. A great majority of them were calling in sick half the month.

What I still have not figured out is why the SWA pilots continue to sell out the profession and themselves to help keep the company’s cost down. You know – pull another one for Herb. Instead of hosing all the younger guys around the industry – why don’t you fix your retirement and health care via negotiation? LUV pilots should be demanding an adequate retirement. I have been told that some LUV pilots are retiring with $2 million plus so why can they not afford their health care? My feeling is a good deal of LUV’s pilots have burnt through their retirement savings and are now ill prepared for their retirement and now have to work another five years to make ends meet.

It’s sad how the arguably healthiest company doesn’t have an adequate retirement program in place after 35 years. This reeks of terrible negotiation on the part of SWAPA and now it has implication for the rest of us in the industry.

Our APA president said he was in contract with SWAPA’s and they are going to soon repoll their membership on the Age 60 issue. SWAPA’s president (I forget his name) says he expects a 60/40 vote in favor of Age 65.

Age 65 really only helps the pilots on the top of the heap. At slow/negative growth airlines such as American, it will spell disaster for the lower majority of the membership/furloughees with an additional 3-5 years of stagnation and/or out in the street. What happens at the next economic downturn and/or terrorist hit. It won’t be pretty.

This process is far from over. Get involved.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Peanut gallery]

Kids

Nice. Is it April first?

I think you might feel a little foolish when this comes to pass.

 

[Cobra]

I think you might feel a little foolish when this comes to pass.

We're still waiting on this legitimate info/source you claim to have.
Or is this just the flightinfo.com subterfuge as usual?

 

[Peanut gallery]

Source's are only as good as their reputation

The same individual, worked as a consultant to the Feds on ETOPS in the 80's, ATOS in the 90's. If the Feds pay him his rates to listen to what he has to say, I think I will listen too. He did not offer this information I just happened to be there when he took the call from Washington.