Age 60 informal poll

[UndauntedFlyer]

With Malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds.
Abraham Lincoln

 

[Phaedrus]

Thanks Abe.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm getting tired of being mad at this.

Undaunted: You fought B scale and won, that was a biggie.

I DO wish no one was furloughed. But for my own needs? I don't care as much if I remain junior.

Let's get the furloughs back and then let's get some dough for the senior crowd too.

 

[The Prussian]

Maybe there is hope for world peace afterall !! (Herb Kelleher (paraphrased))

 

[Andy]

Let's get the furloughs back and then let's get some dough for the senior crowd too.

What Undaunted is not telling everyone here is that he pocketed more than $500K (probably MUCH more; I haven't checked on the details) in stock and bonds as compensation for the loss of his pension. He's already received a lot of dough.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

What Undaunted is not telling everyone here is that he pocketed more than $500K (probably MUCH more; I haven't checked on the details) in stock and bonds as compensation for the loss of his pension. He's already received a lot of dough.

Sorry, but what Andy writes is not correct. I do wish it were true but that's not the case for me. But either way what we are talking about here is ending discrimination: Age discrimination and discrimination against Americans.

That is the only topic of discussion for consideration. Should discrimination such as the age 60 rule be ended now or later when you're 59? That is the only question. And then if it's when you're 59, should it only for those who are destitute to fly past 60? Money has nothing to do with the principle of whether discrimination should be ended, but it is a driving force.

So should this discrimination be ended now or when you're 59.

Undaunted Flyer
On the road in HNL…..

 

[Sluggo_63]

Sorry, but what Andy writes is not correct. I do wish it were true but that's not the case for me. But either way what we are talking about here is ending discrimination: Age discrimination and discrimination against Americans.

I was only on the property for 11 months before I was furloughed, and I got about $5000. How long have you been there?

 

[Phaedrus]

And, again, why is 65 not discrimination? I'm with Flop...tired of banging my head against the schtoopid wall. It ain't about discrimination.

 

[lostplnetairman]

It seems to be about money.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

And, again, why is 65 not discrimination? I'm with Flop...tired of banging my head against the schtoopid wall. It ain't about discrimination.

You mean you don't see this a discrimination against Americans? What is it then when all the airlines in the world can fly here but not Americans? Even a redneck truck driver with a gun rack in the cab can understand this.

Undaunted Flyer
On the road from HNL

 

[Andy]

Sorry, but what Andy writes is not correct. I do wish it were true but that's not the case for me. But either way what we are talking about here is ending discrimination: Age discrimination and discrimination against Americans.

It won't take me very long to dig up a near exact number of stock shares and cash from the bond sales for you.
You made this issue all about the money long ago when you said that if you hadn't lost your pension, you'd retire. And let's not forget your little plea in the newspaper claiming that you don't know how you'll send your son to college.

 

[jbDC9]

You mean you don't see this a discrimination against Americans? What is it then when all the airlines in the world can fly here but not Americans? Even a redneck truck driver with a gun rack in the cab can understand this.

Nah, we see it as you disguising it as "discrimination" when it's really all about the money and your ego.

Again, why is 65 not discrimination but 60 is? Why is it okay to "discriminate" against fellow Americans with such medieval rules like the minimum ages of 17 for the PVT ticket, 18 for Commercial, 23 for ATP; how about the maximum age 30 to hire on as ATC or for an Air Force pilot slot? How about the minimum drinking age, or the minimum age to vote??? Are you gonna whine and complain about how your fellow Americans are so "discriminated" against with these archaic, silly rules?

Oh, wait... no, you won't do that because you don't really give a crap about them. It's all about you and your wallet. And your ego. Quit hiding behind your bullsh!t "discrimination" label and call it what it is; money.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Should discrimination such as the age 60 rule be ended now or later when you're 59? That is the only question? I ask this because we all know and agree, it think, that the law will change sometime. So why wait until you're so lucky? Why not me? Why can't the current group of age 59's get lucky one time? Or is it only you that deserves the luck? Is this now going to be a discussion of who has the hardest luck story?

To Andy: Sure its about economics to an individual, but it's about discrimination against Americnas to others such as the public. This change changes everything and that is why the rule will come into harmony with ICAO very soon. And regarding the money I received from the termination of the A plan, that only represents a small portion of what the A plan should have paid out over a lifetime of retirement. I would certainly take the A plan any day. But as I say, the issue as a whole is not longer about money, that is only for the individual and their decision to retire at 60 or not.

 

[fr8doggie]

Should discrimination such as the age 60 rule be ended now or later when you're 59? That is the only question? I ask this sb

59 sounds good to me.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

59 sounds good to me.

There you go.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

FAA Hiring Back Hundreds Of PATCO Controllers

FAA in the past few months has begun hiring hundreds of former controllers who were fired more than 25 years ago by then-President Ronald Reagan.

Almost all the PATCO controllers being rehired are over 60, because the current controller retirement age of 56 doesn't apply to them.

So how can they do this and still let foreign pilots fly in the US over age 60 but not Americans?

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=3c928a03-f888-42fd-9125-825ef3c0728c

 

[General Lee]

FAA Hiring Back Hundreds Of PATCO Controllers

FAA in the past few months has begun hiring hundreds of former controllers who were fired more than 25 years ago by then-President Ronald Reagan.

Almost all the PATCO controllers being rehired are over 60, because the current controller retirement age of 56 doesn't apply to them.

So how can they do this and still let foreign pilots fly in the US over age 60 but not Americans?

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=3c928a03-f888-42fd-9125-825ef3c0728c

Sounds like they will exclude the current controllers who have to retire at 56. The same thing will happen to the current pilots living under the age 60 rule. As soon as one of those over age 60 FOREIGN pilots crashes, then that will be stopped too. The problem with the ICAO recommendation is that it was done due to LCC expansion in Europe. Not because they had a "change of heart." It was done because they are desperate to find aircrews over there due to huge expansion and lack of pilots. We do not have that problem over here. Nope. Maybe you should change your licences over there and risk some lives over in Europe.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Last post, unless I become hugely pi$$ed off again.

I have acted like a complete a-hole toward Undaunted in an attempt to jar loose some form of his former self. It is of no use, he is old and a shell of his former self. He is facing a long, cold winter and he is unprepared so he is going to eat his young. Best thing to do is to keep him sustained for now and hope in five years he won't need to eat another! As he is now, he will provide whatever rational necessary to do it again. The guy fought B scale! I have withheld admitting it, but we should respect him. I feel bad for him! He will be required to have someone younger monitoring him, taking care of him, cleaning up after him. Widebody left seats will be like a nursing home rocking chair!

Maybe he can help us again? Let's hope so, he's bound to exceed our expectations.

Andy: Thanks for the info, nice work. FWIW, I still support furloughs as a first priority. The best UAL has to offer will one day be yours, and it's going to mean a lot more to you than Undaunted. You're the real pro.

 

[Flopgut]

duplicate...

 

[Flybynite]

Last post, unless I become hugely pi$$ed off again.

I have acted like a complete a-hole toward Undaunted in an attempt to jar loose some form of his former self. It is of no use, he is old and a shell of his former self. He is facing a long, cold winter and he is unprepared so he is going to eat his young. Best thing to do is to keep him sustained for now and hope in five years he won't need to eat another! As he is now, he will provide whatever rational necessary to do it again. The guy fought B scale! I have withheld admitting it, but we should respect him. I feel bad for him! He will be required to have someone younger monitoring him, taking care of him, cleaning up after him. Widebody left seats will be like a nursing home rocking chair!

Maybe he can help us again? Let's hope so, he's bound to exceed our expectations.

Andy: Thanks for the info, nice work. FWIW, I still support furloughs as a first priority. The best UAL has to offer will one day be yours, and it's going to mean a lot more to you than Undaunted. You're the real pro.

Dude you need to get a second job or at least a hobby. The amount of time just to read this crap is amazing let alone the time you must spend typing and replying to every post. I want a job where you work, doesn't sound like much work is required.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Flopgut: You're the greatest. We've all been A-holes to a degree on this issue. It will be nice when the age 60 issue is over as it may soon be, so all ALPA members can be united, hopefully all moving toward common goals.

With malice toward none.

I hope you and Andy are coming to my 60th. All FI members are invited too.

Flt 1 1/27....

 

[Andy]

I was only on the property for 11 months before I was furloughed, and I got about $5000. How long have you been there?

He was hired on 15 May 69.

I did some very rough calculations based on the formulas posted on alpa.org. These are very much low side numbers; Undaunted almost certainly received more than what I post here.
$125+K in stock allocation
$250+K in bond allocation

Those figures do not include the additional C fund contributions that he is receiving, nor does it account for the PBGC pension that he will receive; as long as the Akaka amendment remains intact on HR 2830, he'll be getting around $50K/yr.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Andy: Just to set the FI board members straight, you have been offered recall at UAL and rejected it, like about half the furloughees have been doing. Right? And that would mean that you and the others have something better going. Right?

So we should all feel sorry for you?

Changes in age 60 will give you more time to work at your preferred job, on your next promotion or maybe even present you with an opportunity to reach the stars. Maybe the change will be the best thing that ever happened to you. I know a smart guy like you that was furloughed for 7-years. He went to law school, got started in patent law, came back when recalled and then retired from his airline job 5 years ago. He now makes about $5 million a year.

 

[Klako]

Heck No get out of my seat.

For all who cannot see the harm done by the age 60 rule, consider comparing the age 60 rule and the “me now attitude” of junior pilots to that of first time home buyers. Young couples trying to purchase their first house complain that it is unfair that young people suffer unfairly because old people are holding on to and enjoying nice homes and driving up the price of homes at the expense of young first time home buyers. In frustration that they can not afford to buy the house they want, I overheard one young couple very seriously say that there should be a law that forces everyone to forfit ownership and equity in their house to the government automatically on their 60th birthday and the government would then deed that house to some young person.

The government now unjustly robs senior airline pilots of their profession, so in the future can we expect the government to rob elders of other rights and their property as well?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

For all who cannot see the harm done by the age 60 rule, consider comparing the age 60 rule and the “me now attitude” of junior pilots to that of first time home buyers. Young couples trying to purchase their first house complain that it is unfair that young people suffer unfairly because old people are holding on to and enjoying nice homes and driving up the price of homes at the expense of young first time home buyers. In frustration that they can not afford to buy the house they want, I overheard one young couple very seriously say that there should be a law that forces everyone to forfit ownership and equity in their house to the government automatically on their 60th birthday and the government would then deed that house to some young person.

The government now unjustly robs senior airline pilots of their profession, so in the future can we expect the government to rob elders of other rights and their property as well?

Another great post by Klako. A good analogy. Listen to this man, he's earned his stripes the hard way. No one has a right to steal what he's earned. His house or his job.

 

[Andy]

Dang; I knew that I should have gone for my lowball estimates of $140+K for stock allocation and $300+K for bond allocation.
If either of the numbers had been high by even a penny, you would've 'corrected' me. However, since you got paid more than $125K + $250K, you've chosen to change the subject rather than answer the question. AGAIN.

Andy: Just to set the FI board members straight, you have been offered recall at UAL and rejected it, like about half the furloughees have been doing. Right? And that would mean that you and the others have something better going. Right?

So we should all feel sorry for you?

Changes in age 60 will give you more time to work at your preferred job, on your next promotion or maybe even present you with an opportunity to reach the stars. Maybe the change will be the best thing that ever happened to you. I know a smart guy like you that was furloughed for 7-years. He went to law school, got started in patent law, came back when recalled and then retired from his airline job 5 years ago. He now makes about $5 million a year.

I was offered recall into the Sep class. I'm seniority #8004. I opted to bypass for several reasons, the largest of which is to be more senior in a later recall class. I don't want to go to a 737 or A320 because those on property gave away all of the work rules on those aircraft. Last month, I tried to accept recall to the Dec class, but it was already full. I would've been below #7 in the Jan class (with no shot at a 767), so I told the recall coordinator that I would take recall in the Feb class. I'm hoping for a 767 so that I don't have to live under the heinous LCO work rules. I will take military leave of absence until spring 2009.

Do I expect anyone to feel sorry for me? No; I've never asked for sympathy by publically stating that I can't afford to send my kids to college. I've saved money so that I can send them. I don't ask for anyone to feel sorry for me, but I sure don't like seeing safety being compromised and have fellow furloughees get skrewed over by changing the age limit.

$5 million a year? Do you think that I serve in the military merely for a paycheck? I don't know anyone who is in the military to get rich. Do you really think that my life is driven by money?

 

[Phaedrus]

Klako, you're total inability to grasp even the most shallow aspects of logic astound me. Undaunted, patting him on the back for his just-shy-of-idiotic analogies and logic is a disservice.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

$125K + $250K, you've chosen to change the subject rather than answer the question. AGAIN.

OK. If you really want a response, the stock number is many times too high and the bond number just a little too high. Only the junior guys made out on the stock deal.

But the important qustion is whether you and Flopgut are coming to my 60th at Chuck's. If you can't make the one in HNL, I'm going to have a second party in the ORD employee cafateria on the 29th. We will be serving meatloaf and beans with ice tea. I think the HNL Mai Tai party will be much better.

 

[Sluggo_63]

For all who cannot see the harm done by the age 60 rule, consider comparing the age 60 rule and the “me now attitude” of junior pilots to that of first time home buyers. Young couples trying to purchase their first house complain that it is unfair that young people suffer unfairly because old people are holding on to and enjoying nice homes and driving up the price of homes at the expense of young first time home buyers. In frustration that they can not afford to buy the house they want, I overheard one young couple very seriously say that there should be a law that forces everyone to forfit ownership and equity in their house to the government automatically on their 60th birthday and the government would then deed that house to some young person.

The government now unjustly robs senior airline pilots of their profession, so in the future can we expect the government to rob elders of other rights and their property as well?

This is the most asinine analogy I've seen to date. And it's the second time you've posted it.

Ridiculous...

 

[Klako]

Klako, you're total inability to grasp even the most shallow aspects of logic astound me. Undaunted, patting him on the back for his just-shy-of-idiotic analogies and logic is a disservice.

My analogy is not perfect but if you fail to get the point then you have just admitted to yourself and everyone else that you are a part of the problem.

ALPA President Henry Duffy’s made this statement in the 1990 Baker v FAA “It has never been my belief that professional expertise diminishes at age 60, on the contrary, our senior members possess a wealth of knowledge, aviation history, and insight that have been developed through their years of experience, which are irreplaceable”. He also stated during this testimony “Pilots over 55 comprise 5-6% of the total membership. The other 95% selfishly view the forced retirement of older pilots as their guaranteed path and a God given right to their promotions!”