Age 60 informal poll

[Klako]

This is disingenuous and you know it. It's the same propaganda spewed by the APAAD crowd. It is not down the middle. Maybe, just maybe (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here) it's split down the 75/25 line, and probably much less if you let the furloughees have a voice in this. At least be honest, right now there is a large minority of pilots that want this rule changes. Vocal? Yes. Organized? Yes... but still a minority.

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

 

[fr8doggie]

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

It's an internal ALPA matter. So, unless you are an ALPA member in good standing, Why don't you STFU, Mr. Klako. Or should I say OV1D?

 

[Sluggo_63]

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

No we shouldn't. This does not affect anyone who has retired. The proposed legislation that I read specifically prohibits anyone who has retired from returning to their original seniority (they can reapply as a new hire, though). This does, though, have tremendous ramifications for those who are furloughed, and who will in time be once again dues paying members of ALPA.

I know November is fast approaching, and you are in panic mode, but at least be reasonable with your arguments.

 

[Flopgut]

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

I'm happy to agree with you Klako! They can have a vote, but first I think they should return any an all retirement monies they have already recieved. Lump sum, partial lump sums, annuities, etc....arragements need to be made to return those to the plans first.

 

[Klako]

The proposed legislation that I read specifically prohibits anyone who has retired from returning to their original seniority (they can reapply as a new hire, though).

That is not true, the language in the bill says that a pilot canot "sue" for his original seniority. My union is even considering bringing back retired pilots even at or near their prior seniority number.

Please tell me why APLA and APA must force their dirty deeds on the rest of the industry?

If ALPA and APA want's to screw its senior members, keep that isolated in their own disfunctional house.

 

[Sluggo_63]

That is not true, the language in the bill says that a pilot canot "sue" for his original seniority. My union is even considering bringing back retired pilots even at or near their prior seniority number.

Please tell me why APLA and APA must force their dirty deeds on the rest of the industry?

If ALPA and APA want's to screw its senior members, keep that isolated in their own disfunctional house.

I'll give you that. It did say "sue" and I was generalizing. I don't know how many pilots your airline has retired over the age of 60, but won't there be some resistance from the bottom captains who get displaced to the right seat because of all of your formerly retired captains coming back at their original seniority?

ALPA and APA are not forcing their dirty deeds on the rest of the industry. They are fighting to keep the status quo. ALPA and APA are doing what they should do... listen to the mandate of the majority of their members. If you want to see anyone pushing "dirty deeds," look no further than your cronies at APAAD.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

That is not true, the language in the bill says that a pilot canot "sue" for his original seniority. My union is even considering bringing back retired pilots even at or near their prior seniority number.

This is nuts.

"Not sue" means the company can just say no. The junior guys and management know the can of worms that would open up if seniority was given back. It would be almost impossible to unravel that mess with who goes to training in what, who gets downgraded, what do we do with pension monies paid out. I can see you guys don't care one bit how MUCH it would cost your company to deal with this. That is the first failure of balance here.

Don't even mention how everyone that just upgraded to Captain in the last 1-5 years would go back to FO. That, more than anything else, does not pass the balance test here. You need to be more realistic in your goals.

Those fortunate enough to still be working when age 65 passes could stay on as Captain. Those coming back go to FO. This would provide the least disruption to the rest of the pilots.

But do you really care about the rest of the pilots? You do know this needs to balance everyones interests, right?

A fair deal occurs when everyone feels a little cheated. Odds are, if you go for everything, you will not close the deal (Or wish you hadn't)

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Heck No get out of my seat.

 

[Flopgut]

The bottom line of this thread:

The guys that want the age changed want more consideration for their own situation than they were ever willing to give another pilot. And they aren't asking for it! They are DEMANDING it! They assail every pilot with views contrary to their own as selfish, greedy, biggoted...you name it. But they were no different themselves! Undaunted's UAL ALPA destroyed the original FAL's pilots just for fun! They weren't going to hesitate for a moment to staple (or worse) USAir, or AmWest. But now it's his junk on the chopping block so we all better do something, and fast! As though no one else has had to deal with the loss of a job?! I don't want these age 60+ guys to starve, or do without, or find themselves indigent. However, it is important to consider, how did they conduct themselves throughout their own career? Do they want what they are asking for, or what they deserve? Tough question.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I have contibuted to the overturning of this rule since I was 35. I simply think that it is wrong to fire someone who is qualified (many of whom ar the most qualified) to do their job. Does age affect ones's ability? Sure it does. There is just no data to suggest that 60 is a valid age to terminate an able aviator.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

With Malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds.
Abraham Lincoln

 

[Phaedrus]

Thanks Abe.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm getting tired of being mad at this.

Undaunted: You fought B scale and won, that was a biggie.

I DO wish no one was furloughed. But for my own needs? I don't care as much if I remain junior.

Let's get the furloughs back and then let's get some dough for the senior crowd too.

 

[The Prussian]

Maybe there is hope for world peace afterall !! (Herb Kelleher (paraphrased))

 

[Andy]

Let's get the furloughs back and then let's get some dough for the senior crowd too.

What Undaunted is not telling everyone here is that he pocketed more than $500K (probably MUCH more; I haven't checked on the details) in stock and bonds as compensation for the loss of his pension. He's already received a lot of dough.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

What Undaunted is not telling everyone here is that he pocketed more than $500K (probably MUCH more; I haven't checked on the details) in stock and bonds as compensation for the loss of his pension. He's already received a lot of dough.

Sorry, but what Andy writes is not correct. I do wish it were true but that's not the case for me. But either way what we are talking about here is ending discrimination: Age discrimination and discrimination against Americans.

That is the only topic of discussion for consideration. Should discrimination such as the age 60 rule be ended now or later when you're 59? That is the only question. And then if it's when you're 59, should it only for those who are destitute to fly past 60? Money has nothing to do with the principle of whether discrimination should be ended, but it is a driving force.

So should this discrimination be ended now or when you're 59.

Undaunted Flyer
On the road in HNL…..

 

[Sluggo_63]

Sorry, but what Andy writes is not correct. I do wish it were true but that's not the case for me. But either way what we are talking about here is ending discrimination: Age discrimination and discrimination against Americans.

I was only on the property for 11 months before I was furloughed, and I got about $5000. How long have you been there?

 

[Phaedrus]

And, again, why is 65 not discrimination? I'm with Flop...tired of banging my head against the schtoopid wall. It ain't about discrimination.

 

[lostplnetairman]

It seems to be about money.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

And, again, why is 65 not discrimination? I'm with Flop...tired of banging my head against the schtoopid wall. It ain't about discrimination.

You mean you don't see this a discrimination against Americans? What is it then when all the airlines in the world can fly here but not Americans? Even a redneck truck driver with a gun rack in the cab can understand this.

Undaunted Flyer
On the road from HNL