Age 60 informal poll

[Flopgut]

Flopgut: First off, I've been ALPA member for 37-years and I have an "Battle Star" pin proving it. And when ALPA had some leadership we made great advancements. That's why the election of John Prater gives me hope for the Association. No more "Woerthless."

Now lets talk about your post: There you go only thinking about yourself, a junior pilot (puke) and how tuff it is for you and your friends. Personally I'm sick of it. What about the guys who have turned 60 in the last five years. Where is your concern for them? If the law changes are you interested in that group? I know your answer and it's: NO. That's because from your post all you really care about is yourself and stealing some senior pilot’s livelihood.

Regarding John Prater: I have great confidence in him because he understands the pilot group is divided right down the middle, on the age 60 issue in particular. John Prater understands what many of us have been trying to tell you and your selfish friends for a long time on this Board.

"United we stand divided we fall" is something Woerthless and many of your friends just do not understand. Failure is the only result by your methods as is the current situation of disunity. But if you know John Prater as you say you do, you must know that your thoughts of advancement my deluding others will not work any longer. Now you may have to advance by the hard way.

Read my posts, I've spoke of those over 65. I'm on record of supporting NO age restriction and rostering and assingments in place of seniority. Where is the greed in that? You're WAY off base on those accusations.

Here is what I think John Prater's vision is: To the extent that we can not seem to get past it, and the fact that ICAO retirement age has changed, and that pensions have been denuded, we need to reconsider age 60 retirement. However, we must equally support initiatives that help the whole profession. It would be far better if we could restore the financial elements that made age 60 retirement possible. I believe it is going to be a priority of his to highlight the fact that airlines now have more money than they ever have and the ink is not dry on the paperwork cancelling the pensions. He is going to talk to Congress about that and push for comprehensive changes and he doesn't intend to leave anyone out. I would like to see a pension/thrift savings plan/railroad type retirement vehicle be implemented for every pilot that flies FAR 121. Something that could act as a backstop to our 401Ks. Additionally, I think that plan should be made available to pilots at least back to 2001, maybe even deregulation. That's the sort of thing I would like to see, and I'm optomistic that will be the sort of fundamental changes we WILL see. I'm sure you think that's preposterous and you would rather just have your seat and your money and everybody else should go to he!! and get out of YOUR business! Bad attitude my friend.

 

[Flybynite]

I believe it is going to be a priority of his to highlight the fact that airlines now have more money than they ever have and the ink is not dry on the paperwork cancelling the pensions. He is going to talk to Congress about that and push for comprehensive changes and he doesn't intend to leave anyone out. I would like to see a pension/thrift savings plan/railroad type retirement vehicle be implemented for every pilot that flies FAR 121. Something that could act as a backstop to our 401Ks. Additionally, I think that plan should be made available to pilots at least back to 2001, maybe even deregulation. That's the sort of thing I would like to see, and I'm optomistic that will be the sort of fundamental changes we WILL see.

Do you have a job or do you just sit around all day thinking this stuff up? The canceled pensions are coming back? I'd bet the bank on that one and at the same time congress will institute drug and alcohol testing for its members. I hear your alarm ringing, time to wake up.

 

[Flopgut]

Maybe I'll start wearing my "Battle Star" pin. The one that was so hard earned.

Who cares if you wear it, start acting like it! YOU need to lead on something other than that which supports you most immediate need. I just re read a good portion of this very long thread and you sound like a child! I have NO idea where you can come up with the selfish accusations you assert in the earlier post. You have managed to go through most of this thread and learn NOTHING, you consider very little of other's opinions. I'm so sick of hearing how great you are and how much you deserve an age change. I've seen pilots lose it all and they got themselves back on track...If you're that great, you can too! If you want my help, find a little humility!

There is a 1 in 3 chance this won't change IMHO. I'm sick of this thread, so I'm about done. Dialog here will be useful in preparing to deal with a change. Those of us who will have to work within rank with pilots like a lot of these age changers have our work cut out for us. It will be like a strike broken with replacement workers. There will be pilots flying out of seniority and some really huge, arrogant egos in the left seat. Doubt it? Read the thread. If this business is to improve/survive post retirement age change, it will be the result of the professionalism of the marginalized, not the recipients of the windfall.

 

[Flopgut]

Do you have a job or do you just sit around all day thinking this stuff up? The canceled pensions are coming back? I'd bet the bank on that one and at the same time congress will institute drug and alcohol testing for its members. I hear your alarm ringing, time to wake up.

You familiar with the TSP? What the Railroad offers and why? There is plenty to go on in this effort and the time is just about right. Let the program run like the PBGC and draw the funds from every FAR 121 carrier. A combination of years service and age earns a FAR 121 pilot a certain dollar amount. What's wrong with that? Beats changing retirement age five more times.

 

[General Lee]

You familiar with the TSP? What the Railroad offers and why? There is plenty to go on in this effort and the time is just about right. Let the program run like the PBGC and draw the funds from every FAR 121 carrier. A combination of years service and age earns a FAR 121 pilot a certain dollar amount. What's wrong with that? Beats changing retirement age five more times.

I think we should change the retirement age when the stock market crashes again, and when Mars attacks! Why not? Many things can happen, except people aging and becoming dangerous.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Klako]

This is disingenuous and you know it. It's the same propaganda spewed by the APAAD crowd. It is not down the middle. Maybe, just maybe (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here) it's split down the 75/25 line, and probably much less if you let the furloughees have a voice in this. At least be honest, right now there is a large minority of pilots that want this rule changes. Vocal? Yes. Organized? Yes... but still a minority.

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

 

[fr8doggie]

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

It's an internal ALPA matter. So, unless you are an ALPA member in good standing, Why don't you STFU, Mr. Klako. Or should I say OV1D?

 

[Sluggo_63]

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

No we shouldn't. This does not affect anyone who has retired. The proposed legislation that I read specifically prohibits anyone who has retired from returning to their original seniority (they can reapply as a new hire, though). This does, though, have tremendous ramifications for those who are furloughed, and who will in time be once again dues paying members of ALPA.

I know November is fast approaching, and you are in panic mode, but at least be reasonable with your arguments.

 

[Flopgut]

If you let the furloughees have a voice in this, then all pilots forced to retire within the last five years should also have an equal voice.

I'm happy to agree with you Klako! They can have a vote, but first I think they should return any an all retirement monies they have already recieved. Lump sum, partial lump sums, annuities, etc....arragements need to be made to return those to the plans first.

 

[Klako]

The proposed legislation that I read specifically prohibits anyone who has retired from returning to their original seniority (they can reapply as a new hire, though).

That is not true, the language in the bill says that a pilot canot "sue" for his original seniority. My union is even considering bringing back retired pilots even at or near their prior seniority number.

Please tell me why APLA and APA must force their dirty deeds on the rest of the industry?

If ALPA and APA want's to screw its senior members, keep that isolated in their own disfunctional house.

 

[Sluggo_63]

That is not true, the language in the bill says that a pilot canot "sue" for his original seniority. My union is even considering bringing back retired pilots even at or near their prior seniority number.

Please tell me why APLA and APA must force their dirty deeds on the rest of the industry?

If ALPA and APA want's to screw its senior members, keep that isolated in their own disfunctional house.

I'll give you that. It did say "sue" and I was generalizing. I don't know how many pilots your airline has retired over the age of 60, but won't there be some resistance from the bottom captains who get displaced to the right seat because of all of your formerly retired captains coming back at their original seniority?

ALPA and APA are not forcing their dirty deeds on the rest of the industry. They are fighting to keep the status quo. ALPA and APA are doing what they should do... listen to the mandate of the majority of their members. If you want to see anyone pushing "dirty deeds," look no further than your cronies at APAAD.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

That is not true, the language in the bill says that a pilot canot "sue" for his original seniority. My union is even considering bringing back retired pilots even at or near their prior seniority number.

This is nuts.

"Not sue" means the company can just say no. The junior guys and management know the can of worms that would open up if seniority was given back. It would be almost impossible to unravel that mess with who goes to training in what, who gets downgraded, what do we do with pension monies paid out. I can see you guys don't care one bit how MUCH it would cost your company to deal with this. That is the first failure of balance here.

Don't even mention how everyone that just upgraded to Captain in the last 1-5 years would go back to FO. That, more than anything else, does not pass the balance test here. You need to be more realistic in your goals.

Those fortunate enough to still be working when age 65 passes could stay on as Captain. Those coming back go to FO. This would provide the least disruption to the rest of the pilots.

But do you really care about the rest of the pilots? You do know this needs to balance everyones interests, right?

A fair deal occurs when everyone feels a little cheated. Odds are, if you go for everything, you will not close the deal (Or wish you hadn't)

 

[Boeing747Driver]

Heck No get out of my seat.

 

[Flopgut]

The bottom line of this thread:

The guys that want the age changed want more consideration for their own situation than they were ever willing to give another pilot. And they aren't asking for it! They are DEMANDING it! They assail every pilot with views contrary to their own as selfish, greedy, biggoted...you name it. But they were no different themselves! Undaunted's UAL ALPA destroyed the original FAL's pilots just for fun! They weren't going to hesitate for a moment to staple (or worse) USAir, or AmWest. But now it's his junk on the chopping block so we all better do something, and fast! As though no one else has had to deal with the loss of a job?! I don't want these age 60+ guys to starve, or do without, or find themselves indigent. However, it is important to consider, how did they conduct themselves throughout their own career? Do they want what they are asking for, or what they deserve? Tough question.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

I have contibuted to the overturning of this rule since I was 35. I simply think that it is wrong to fire someone who is qualified (many of whom ar the most qualified) to do their job. Does age affect ones's ability? Sure it does. There is just no data to suggest that 60 is a valid age to terminate an able aviator.