Age 60 informal poll

[Flopgut]

If nothing else, I'm sure it will receive the full support of airline management.

Just think! In 15 or 20 years, when you and all your age-60 peers are working for 50K, you can tell them, "Yea, that was my idea!"

The majority of pilots will be allright with it. I know that's a problem for you because you and Klako are hoping for personal windfalls.

Why do you both have a problem with majority rule?

 

[Klako]

Right. So I should have to pay for this?

“Paying for” should not be the consequence for something that should never have been. Wait your turn for promotion just like in every other profession.

 

[atafan]

Why don't you become an air traffic controller? Oh, that's right, you have to be younger than 31 to start, with a mandatory retirement age of 56. Crap! Hope you're going to change that one, too.

How about serving your community as a policeman or fireman? Retirement at 55 there too?

Guaranteed pensions, something most don't have. If I could retire at 55 with a healthy pension I'd do it as soon as possible.

It's all about the almighty buck!

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

The majority of pilots will be allright with it. I know that's a problem for you because you and Klako are hoping for personal windfalls.

Why do you both have a problem with majority rule?

I don't have a problem with "majority rule" per se, but when one group stands to benefit directly from a rule change at the expense of another, "majority rule" becomes divisive. And that is exactly what airline managers would like to see among their labor organizations...one group at odds with another.

One of the first rules any prospective business manager learns is that when dealing with organized labor, "Divide and Conquer" whenever possible. If you can convince the guys on the bottom half of the seniority list that their interests are markedly different from those on the top half, and that their lot in life would be so much better if only those money-grubbing senior guys weren't taking it all, you've begun the process. One way of doing that is to propose changes to the labor contract that would benefit somewhat 60% of the group at the expense of the other 40%, and try to get them to put it to a vote. (A true "union" would never allow it to go to a vote, but an "Association" often will. Guess which one ALPA is?)

Assuming it passes...even if the overall cost to the company remains the same, management wins, because they've created chaos and division between labor groups whose goals should be one and the same.

Look at some of the cr*p that's going on between Atlas/Polar, and what DHL is trying to do with ASTAR and ABX. Especially between ASTAR and ABX, because that is what will ultimately set the pace for ALL cargo flying (including "Brown" and "Purple") for the next 20 years.

I don't know how many pilots will be able to work past 60 even if the rule were rescinded. I suspect that at most, 7-10% of the seniority list will be past that age at any given time. I hate to think that 51% of our members would be willing to vote 10% of our members out of a job just to line their own pockets, but it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that they would.

This is one time that I'm da*m glad that ALPA doesn't have enough pull in Washington to prevent a law from being changed...

 

[Draginass]

I hate to think that 51% of our members would be willing to vote 10% of our members out of a job just to line their own pockets, but it's becoming increasingly obvious to me that they would.

Hmmmm. . . . 51% of the senior guys voted me and a bunch more junior guys out of a job at my major airline, then have gone-on to fly as much overtime as possible . . "lining their pockets."

What ya say about that?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Hmmmm. . . . 51% of the senior guys voted me and a bunch more junior guys out of a job at my major airline, then have gone-on to fly as much overtime as possible . . "lining their pockets."

What ya say about that?

I'd say, "Go back and read the last sentence of my second-to-last paragraph."

WE are our own worst enemies. If this thread were about how senior guys are alienating their junior counterparts and sowing the seeds of division in the ranks by permitting that kind of stuff, I would have addressed it.

Back in the early 70's, there was a cartoon in "Stars and Stripes," a military newspaper. It was an aerial view of a boot camp, with quonset huts, etc., and a rough old Drill Sergaent addressing a bunch of new recruits. He was saying something to the effect of..."Any time one of you pansies thinks he can kick my b*utt, I'll meet you behind the quonset hut!"

Behind the quonset hut, one could see a bunch of street-toughs in civilian clothes, all rolling up their sleeves and readying clubs and a blanket.

If "we" as a profession ever start acting less like Boy Scouts and more like a real Union, some of our problems will go away.

 

[Flopgut]

Well Dan, tell me how your going to be the bigger person here, meet me half way. How do you keep working and not flatspot my earnings? You preach about union stuff, how do I avoid resenting the crap out you when you get to stay near the top for 5 more years? No real union member, and no real union would accept a new working reality and not want to see the proceeds go more evenly.

 

[Klako]

No real union member, and no real union would accept a new working reality and not want to see the proceeds go more evenly.

I believe that here are only two organized labor unions that now oppose a change to the “Age 60 Rule”, ALPA and APA. This begs the question, what legitimate labor union would actively support a rule that discriminates against its own members, forces them to leave their workplaces and leaves them with reduced benefits?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Well Dan, tell me how your going to be the bigger person here, meet me half way. How do you keep working and not flatspot my earnings? You preach about union stuff, how do I avoid resenting the crap out you when you get to stay near the top for 5 more years? No real union member, and no real union would accept a new working reality and not want to see the proceeds go more evenly.

You seem to be implying that because I was hired before you, I'm somehow "flatspotting" your earnings.

How is that any different from the "flatspotting" you're doing to other guys by holding on to your seat? Would you consider taking a LOA, so that some of the guys under you could move up more quickly?

Look at the pay rates at your own airline. If you're an ALPA carrier, you're probably paying your Captains $60-$80/hr more than your F/O's. That discrepancy alone probably has more effect on your career earnings than raising the retirement age would. Personally, I would have no problem closing the gap on seat pay, even if it does "flatspot" Captain's earnings (including my own) to some extent.

 

[Flopgut]

Dan, You spin eloquently about unity and brotherhood, but do you ever consider that because the majority of your union brothers want you gone at 60, that maybe the best thing for the craft is for you to be gone at 60? you are not characterizing or observing this problem correctly at all, you ARE the problem. There are NO career expectations past age 60 in this gig, if you want to stay, it's the same difference as. you want to be a replacement worker. Best thing for this profession is for retirements to remain 60 years old.