Age 60 informal poll

[UndauntedFlyer]

There is only a very small window of opportunity for Congress to change the age 60 law; approximately 15 days in session. It is unlikely to happen before 29 January.

You may be very wrong about this. We will soon see however.

Also, on this Board, you continually use my personal name. I don't think my name is or was a great secret and it doesn't take much detective work to learn this information, but it is not allowed by FI rules. Your posts will most likely be deleted for this reason. That will be unfortunate because they show how you think you have it so bad when others I'm sure have had much less of a career than you.

One thing that is really strange about this career, just about everyone complains, from new hires with one year under their belt to the 747/777 captains. Only those in their first year think this is all great.

 

[Andy]

Your posts will most likely be deleted for this reason. That will be unfortunate because they show how you think you have it so bad when others I'm sure have had much less of a career than you.

OMG, my posts deleted? Heaven forbid! The world will end for me! Not.

I DON'T think that I've got it so bad; how did you leap to such a bizarre conclusion? But I'm not the one trying to change the rules.

 

[Andy]

Andy, you say your daughter wanted a pony and yet you try to say that that is equivalent to children wanting an education? Sorry but this is not the same thing. As a parent I consider it is my obligation to provide an education, just as you are doing, not ponies.

OK, I can see that your cognitive abilities are diminishing. I clearly compared your son's desire to fly to my daughter's desire to have a pony.
I view providing a child's education as a neccessity; far more important than material objects.

And as far as airplanes are concerned, you some how want to think I own an airplane and apparently that is just too much to have in life. Let me say this again, I do not own an airplane in any way. I did own a Pitts Special which I sold several years ago and I have recently sold my Decathlon because I can not afford to keep it. I really don't think owning an airplane is a crime as you seem to want to characterize it.

I don't think that owning a plane is a crime, but it certainly is NOT a neccessity. If you can't provide for your son's education, why would you own a plane?

Also, from how you have described your situation, you, above all, will most certainly be a person that will continue past age 60. Am I right?

No. Rather than spend all of my money on luxuries, I've salted away enough in my IRA and 401k to not have to worry about retirement. I also have a decent cash pad to fall back on. I don't own a house or live high on the hog, but I don't need to worry about retirement either.
This is like the story of the grasshopper and the ant. I chose to be like the ant. You chose to be the grasshopper. Now that it's winter and you have no food, you want to make the world less safe so that you can get more food.

Captain Erb doesn't sound like a very bright individual. He should've seen this coming more than a decade before he retired. I have no sympathy for people who fail to plan for the future. Those that fail to plan, plan to fail.

Now, where'd all those big, fat paychecks go to? You claim to have lived a modest lifestyle; if you had, you'd have buckets of cash socked away. I am under the impression that, in spite of making far less than you, I have more money saved up for retirement.

 

[Cessna Queen]

age 60 doesn't apply to part 91 - rewrite your question

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Now, where'd all those big, fat paychecks go to? You claim to have lived a modest lifestyle; if you had, you'd have buckets of cash socked away. I am under the impression that, in spite of making far less than you, I have more money saved up for retirement.

Much of what I have earned has been given to ALPA, as well as the ALPA PAC money so you can have a better career. How much have you given to the PAC? Also much has been given to the furlough fund to pay for the health insurance for the furloughees like you. Were you a beneficiary of this assistance? From what you have written I would think so. And if so I think a nice thank you is appropriate. I also do much volunteer work in aviation and I guess that all costs money. Plus, of course, I do give an appropriate chunk of my salary to my church and other worthy causes including scholarship funds for those who are interested in aviation. Plus, of course, I have spared no expense in educating my older two children so they to can hope to reach their dreams. How about you? Are you just socking it all away in your 401k and your Roth plan? Sounds like that is the case from what you have written.

And regarding flying lessons, I consider learning to fly to be the same as paying for an education, but you seem to think that such lessons are like buying a pony. Sorry but ponies are a lot different than education. In my life, flying lessons were the best investment I ever made, but my pony rides have yet to pay off.

It is interesting that you seem to think that only those who are the neediest should be able to work past age 60, as if that is some kind of litmus test for work past that age. And regarding your own plans past age 60, give us all a break with your saying how well prepared you are to retire. That will make no difference, I know you will work past age 60 because there is nothing special about that age. If you're in good health why would you quit at age 60 unless you hate the job or have a horrible commute? And if that is the case you should quit now and let some guy who loves this work in the door.

And as a question to you and others who read this, what would you do if you were in my place? Quit now or keep working as a senior 777 captain? Isn't a senior captain's position what we've all wanted all our lives. So be honest, does anyone really think they would just quit? I say, no way would anyone leave this job unless they must. Does anyone think being retired with not much money is better than flying to Hawaii every week? And by the way, anyone who wants to ride my jump seat to HNL on September 5th from ORD is welcome to be my special guest and to attend the Captain’s crew layover party. The place: Chuck’s Steakhouse, 5PM. Just let me know and you’ll be most welcome, even Andy.

Chuck’s Steakhouse: http://www.restaurantswaikiki.com/chuckssteakhouse.htm

 

[FoxHunter]

Now, my story. I am almost 46 years old. I exercise ~5 times/wk. I can tell that my body is slowly dying. My eyesight is getting worse, my hearing isn't as good, my blood pressure has risen, I feel more aches and pains in the morning, and I forget more often. And I think that you've noticed the same.
I was hired at United in 2000 at the age of 39. I was furloughed in March 2002. In the last 4 1/2 years, I've been unemployed for approximately 10 months. My daughter starts freshman year at Regis University in Denver this year; tuition is $37K/yr.
I live in a crappy apartment, I drive a beater, and when I eat out it's at dive restaurants. I don't go out much.
Yet, in spite of all of my financial problems, my daughter's college is paid for (except for ~$4K in student loans), my Roth IRA is maxed, and my 401k is maxed. All because I live within a budget.
I don't know where your financial planning went awry, but I refuse to compromise airline safety just so that you can pi$$ away all of your money for another 5 years.

Andy, you don't like it when the rules change unless it is to your benefit. The age 60 rule was put into place and will change in the near future. The rule that changed 15-20 years ago was the one that you had to be under the age of 32 to be considered by almost any airline in the USA for a pilot position. You were hired at UAL at age 39, lucky you!!! What were you doing from age 18 to 39? Did you decide to become a pilot after you turned age 30? Very poor planning on your part.

Why is your daughter going to a school that costs $37,000 a year in tuition? I just had four children go to Penn State or another PA state school. Harvard or Yale, but Regis in Denver? You pay $37,000 a year in tuition, plus the other expenses and you have done this on savings? I'm impressed, could there be any other source of funds? Some people inherit money, some have grand parents that help, or I guess that some are so talented like you that their money just grows like a weed.:beer:

 

[§kyye Candy]

No offense, but come on...

Much of what I have earned has been given to ALPA, as well as the ALPA PAC money so you can have a better career.

I think I speak for quite a few when I say that I would MUCH rather have the opportunity to earn my own money than to take handouts from a bunch of guys above me who are trying to end the chances of a decent career for any of the rest of us, just so they can abscond with even more of the proverbial pie for themselves.

Dare I ask... oh, what the hey: What happened to your industry-leading contract? Did you "give" money to ALPA, or were you working hard to secure a better future for us when you grandfathered in your own contract language? - which is it? Thanks for the financial advice, what with my fledgling youth and all, but I think I'll take my chances.

Many guys entered into their airline careers at age 21 with 3-digit total times, yet somehow are retiring with nothing. I'm sure that some people would work until age 100 if they could, and still not have anything to show for it.

Does anyone think being retired with not much money is better than flying to Hawaii every week?

No, do tell... what is it like to fly one trip per week and have all of that free time to spend telling us how grateful we should be?

And by the way, anyone who wants to ride my jump seat to HNL on September 5th from ORD is welcome to be my special guest and to attend the Captain’s crew layover party.

Thanks for the invitation, but I would guess the vast majority of us actually have to work... personally, I am not affording many "crew LO parties" or trips to the steakhouse these days. But hey, thanks for a leg-up in the industry. What a guy.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Now days I really don't think that pilots will be able to save enough money to retire unless they work to age 65. Just work the numbers. It's really simple to see that it can not be done at todays pay rates unless your spouse works and makes more money that you do. Age 65 is a must.

 

[Klako]

Since it’s inception, “The Age 60 Rule” has been an on-going curse on the airline industry. The primary reason why the “Age 60 Rule” is still around today is because of the persistent opposition from ALPA APA as they continue to succeed in preventing a change to the “Age 60 Rule” through their political influence within the FAA along with their lobbying efforts in Congress. The motive behind ALPA and APA resisting a change to the “Age 60 Rule” reflects the “me now” attitude of their junior pilots. The rule has had little chance of being abolished because the pilot groups under age 50 will always represent the majority, maintaining their political power through the forced retirement of pilots over age 60. Junior pilots will always view the forced retirement of all pilots over the age of 60 as essential to their career progression. Thus the majority will always maintain command of a system that succeeds in eliminating competition from the minority. When pilots over the age of 50 finally come to the realization that the “Age 60 Rule” will adversely impact the remainder of their lives, it is too late as they are now members of the minority and have little power to effect a change.

A person’s age must not be the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot. The federal law mandating that all airline pilots must retire at the arbitrary age of 60 was never intended to be a vehicle to enhance aviation safety. Safety is the ruse that the FAA has used to deflect criticism of it’s “Age 60 Rule” as being discriminatory and unfair to older pilots. The FAA defends the “Age 60 Rule” solely on the grounds that no one has come up with a study proving that pilots will be safer beyond their 60th birthday. The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), Marion Blakey, says that the available safety data and latest medical research are insufficient for the agency to begin the steps necessary to change the age 60 rule. Thus the FAA's official position is that, in spite of numerous scientific studies, it has insufficient evidence to prove that an airline pilot would be as safe or safer if allowed to fly beyond age 60 and therefore all airline pilots must be grounded on their 60th birthday. What a pitiful distortion of logic that the FAA uses to deprive otherwise qualified persons their right to perform in their lifelong career. If the Federal government wants a law that denies an otherwise qualified person to practice in their profession, then that government must prove that there are enough scientific reasons for such a law to exist. It is the federal government’s burden to prove that all airline pilots suffer an unacceptable decline in their ability to fly beyond age 60 which poses an unacceptable safety risk to the flying public. This proof is something that Congress has repeatedly directed the FAA to come up with for over 20 years but the FAA has failed produce such proof. That proof simply dose not exist.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Klako:

Your above post is the best I have ever seen on the age 60 issue.

Thank you for your insightful views.

Undaunted Flyer

 

[Klako]

Klako:

Your above post is the best I have ever seen on the age 60 issue.

Thank you for your insightful views.

Undaunted Flyer

Thank You UndauntedFlyer!

How can anyone deny the truth?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Wow, burdened. Where is my violin?

Have you taken a look at a Regional CA's paycheck lately? Apparently not. 2K/mo. wouldn't be far from the high average. For many, that may be all that's on the horizon in the immediate future, period. No other benefits to speak of, unless you count "jumpseating" on airplanes that have no jumpseats available. I wonder if the vast majority would consider a 300K cash acct. and a house that's almost paid for much in the way of assets.

No offense, but as someone once said, "That's a pretty arrogant statement considering the company you're in!"

Skyye Candy and others of similar views:

I mean no offense here either, but you have to look at the fact that with the kind of income you have pointed out is the average of the new industry pay rates, I would expect that very few will be able to amass enough money to retire at 60 and live on until 80. That's why 5 more years of earning ability is must in this career. Does anyone really think that they can really save 2M dollars by age 60? Or even one million dollars by age 65. You see, 2 million is what it will take to retire at 60, and 1 to 1.5 million is what it will take to retire at 65.

UndauntedFlyer

 

[Andy]

Andy, you don't like it when the rules change unless it is to your benefit. The age 60 rule was put into place and will change in the near future. The rule that changed 15-20 years ago was the one that you had to be under the age of 32 to be considered by almost any airline in the USA for a pilot position. You were hired at UAL at age 39, lucky you!!! What were you doing from age 18 to 39? Did you decide to become a pilot after you turned age 30? Very poor planning on your part.

Why is your daughter going to a school that costs $37,000 a year in tuition? I just had four children go to Penn State or another PA state school. Harvard or Yale, but Regis in Denver? You pay $37,000 a year in tuition, plus the other expenses and you have done this on savings? I'm impressed, could there be any other source of funds? Some people inherit money, some have grand parents that help, or I guess that some are so talented like you that their money just grows like a weed.:beer:

Foxhunter, I don't like it when we decrease the level of safety in commercial aviation. Please take the time to these two FAA reports:
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_3.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_4.pdf
As described by the Federal Air Surgeon, there is a steep U curve.

"What was I doing from age 18 to 39?" Serving in the Air Force.
"Did you decide to become a pilot after you turned age 30?" I had already been a pilot for several years before I turned age 30.

"Why is your daughter going to a school that costs $37,000 a year in tuition?" Because she wants to be a surgeon and Regis University has an extremely good track record for med school acceptance. Her first choice was NYU, but didn't make the cut. Regis was her safety school. She liked Regis because of the student to teacher ratio; her largest class has less than 50 students. Most have 10 or less. Here's a link: http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/directory/brief/drglance_1363_brief.php

"You pay $37,000 a year in tuition, plus the other expenses and you have done this on savings?"

$37K/yr includes the whole ball of wax. Tuition, books, room & board, student fees, etc.

As for being able to afford it, my wife and I make ~$150K/yr. My wife doesn't max out her 401k, but I do, so subtract $20K for 401Ks. Subtract another $45K for federal, state, and social security taxes. Subtract another $8K for Roth IRAs. Subtract another $21K for housing (we live in the DC area; it's expensive. But that figure includes utilities). Our cars are paid for.
That leaves us with $56K/yr. Subtract $37K for my daughter's tuition and you've still got $19K remaining. We are dipping into savings ever so slightly.
I'm guessing that after the above, we're spending $2K/month.

It isn't hard if you live responsibly. Give it a try sometime.

 

[Andy]

You see, 2 million is what it will take to retire at 60, and 1 to 1.5 million is what it will take to retire at 65.

UndauntedFlyer

ZOIKS! What are figuring for an annual cash burn rate?
$500K to $1 mil for five years? Not to mention that you should be able to get at least a 5% ROI. So, if you're figuring $1.5 mil at 65 and $2 mil at 60, you're planning on burning through $75K/yr ROI plus $100K/yr. That's $175K/yr! I gotta call BS on your numbers.

Let's take your $2 mil figure. If you live off of the interest and don't touch any principal, you're getting $100K/yr @ 5% ROI (very conservative number). If you think that you need $100K/yr to live on, your budgeting is where the problem lies. You need to adjust to a different lifestyle come 29 January.

 

[miles otoole]

Hey Andy,
What's your daugher look like? I am thinkin' I could retire at 50. (Kidding-just trying to lighten the mood around the subject.)

Many in my family are telecom folks who were sitting on a ton of stock options in the 90s and fully expecting to be able to retire at 55. With the destruction of the telecom industry, including the elimination of hundreds of thousands of jobs, many, many industry professionals in their late 40s and early 50s were all of a sudden competing for jobs with very sharp, savvy 20 Y.O.s Guess who became the preferred hiree? You got it, the new, young guy who was just as qualified.
What did most do? They quickly recognized that it was time to survive. Some became real estate professionals, some went back to school and learned a new career, etc.
The bottom line is that while it's BS that there's an age 60 rule and it has NOTHING to do with medical reasons, age discrimination is in full effect. It's all about money and seniority, err, I mean majority, the real drivers of this F-Up'd industry.