Age 60 informal poll

[UndauntedFlyer]

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

 

[Andy]

UndauntedFlyer, you have not answered any of my questions!

OK, I'm totally ignorant on this subject. I fail to quote retired UAL captain sam woolsey as a reputable source because he's been fighting age 60 since he was ~58 and has set up a website (www.age60rule.com). I've read his website but found glaring omissions and distortions. But I am ignorant for not taking his distorted viewpoint as gospel.

But let's get back to you because I can tell that you think that the world revolves around you. You've been a 777 captain at United for seven years. You're currently number 10 out of more than 8600 pilots on the seniority list. You've pulled down a six digit salary for more than 15 years. How could you piss it all away to the point where you can't pay for your son's college? Wow. I'm floored.
Now that you've found yourself in a corner, you're figuring that you can save yourself by compromising safety standards. How noble of you.

UndauntedFlyer, you have not answered any of my questions!

 

[Phaedrus]

So quit being so divisive.
Oh, and answer Andy's questions. My ears hurt.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Andy's questions have been asked and answered. I guess he disn't like my answers when they were given several pages back. I see no need in repeating those answers.

 

[Andy]

Andy's questions have been asked and answered. I guess he disn't like my answers when they were given several pages back. I see no need in repeating those answers.

No, you haven't answered my questions. This is just another indication that your cognitive abilities are rapidly deteriorating. My questions are again posted below. You say that you've answered them; reference the applicable posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #448
Captain, you were #11 on the 2005 seniority list and you are #9 on the 2006 seniority list. ... Where'd it all go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #448
Can you explain how you've been able to squander away such a huge salary?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #448
How many airlines have you seen go under during your career? Did you not learn from ALL of those ex-Easterners on United property who lost their entire pensions? (I flew with a lot of them; I heeded their advice to not live beyond a flight engineer's salary). Did you think that there was no possibility of meeting the same fate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #448

Why is 60 discriminatory, yet 65 is not discriminatory? Or do you advocate flying until you die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #449
1) Where did all of your money go? You've been earning a 6 figure salary for a LONG time.
2) Why didn't you spearhead this effort to change the retirement age 20 years ago? Why did you wait until you were 59?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #464
ZOIKS! What are figuring for an annual cash burn rate? $500K to $1 mil for five years??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #477
Care to state publicly the amount of stock and bond money that you received? Ballpark from what I've read is that it's north of $500K.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #528
If this is truly a 'cause' that you be fighting for, is it safe to assume that you will continue to champion this effort after January 28, or will you join the rest of the 59ers who have recently 'seen the light,' only to disappear once there is no personal benefit to them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy in post #535
Have you noticed that everyone voicing a strong opinion on extending the retirement age is over 55?


UndauntedFlyer, you have not answered any of my questions!

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I have always noticed that when a person has lost an argument that they often times begin name calling and changing the issue.

This thread deals with the merits and the likelihood of the age 60 rule changing. Whether any member of this Board is wealthy or poor, has $100 or $1,000,000 has nothing to do with the subject.

This thread only deals with age discrimination and a person's right to work and therefore support their family.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

ALPA President speaks on age-60 Issue

ALPA President Henry Duffy’s made this statement in the 1990 Baker v FAA “It has never been my belief that professional expertise diminishes at age 60, on the contrary, our senior members possess a wealth of knowledge, aviation history, and insight that have been developed through their years of experience, which are irreplaceable”. He also stated during this testimony “Pilots over 55 comprise 5-6% of the total membership. The other 95% selfishly view the forced retirement of older pilots as their guaranteed path and a God given right to their promotions!”


Is "ANDY" a member of that 95%?

 

[Phaedrus]

The 5-6% that are being forced to retire: How did/do they view the forced retirement of the pilots in front of them? I'll surmise there was no hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over their poor elders being forced out so they could benefit. It is not a God given right, but that's the game we've been playing for a long time. You want to change it now because you're on the other end of the age spectrum. One of these mornings how about peeling off that rationalizing film from your mirror and take a good look.
Is "ANDY" a member of that 95%?: Most probably. Were you once part of that 95%? No doubt.

 

[Phaedrus]

The 5-6% that are being forced to retire: How did/do they view the forced retirement of the pilots in front of them? I'll surmise there was no hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth over their poor elders being forced out so they could benefit. It is not a God given right, but that's the game we've been playing for a long time. You want to change it now because you're on the other end of the age spectrum. One of these mornings how about peeling off that rationalizing film from your mirror and take a good look.
Is "ANDY" a member of that 95%?: Most probably. Were you once part of that 95%? No doubt.

 

[Phaedrus]

sorry about the double.

 

[Andy]

I have always noticed that when a person has lost an argument that they often times begin name calling and changing the issue.

This thread deals with the merits and the likelihood of the age 60 rule changing. Whether any member of this Board is wealthy or poor, has $100 or $1,000,000 has nothing to do with the subject.

This thread only deals with age discrimination and a person's right to work and therefore support their family.

OMG, that’s rich. I have made it very clear from my first post that the age 60 rule is about safety. You and your ilk have produced no statistical data to disprove this. The reason why you have no statistical data to disprove the safety aspects of the age 60 is because after age 55, the negative effects of aging are far greater an influence on pilot performance than any lifetime experience. The data is out there that confirms this which is why all of you that are yelling discrimination are unable to produce scientific studies to counter that argument.

As for my questions on what has happened to all of your earnings and your inability to learn from other airlines going under, I have asked for several reasons. First, you have made it abundantly clear in previous posts that you would retire at age 60 had it not been for the loss of your pension. That means that this issue is only about money for you; it has nothing to do with discrimination. You obviously have no concern for the safety of the flying public.
Second, I think that you have either grossly distorted your financial morass or you are financially incompetent. Or both.
Third, I think that your coming clean on your finances, assuming that they’re a mess, will serve as an outstanding example of what pilots do not want to do. Many others can learn from your mistakes; I’m giving you the opportunity to teach them using your personal failure as an example.

You are attempting to rally public support for your cause based on discrimination and the loss of pensions. Here’s a newsflash for you. The public is NOT sympathetic to the financial plight of pilots. They think that they all make $300K/yr. And even though they’re off a bit on the compensation, they’re not going to have sympathy for senior pilots earning six figures. And they certainly won’t have any sympathy when they find out the true accident statistics among senior pilots.

 

[Spooky 2]

Oh Andy come on now. Please direct us to your statistics regarding the older "airline" pilots and their increased accident rates. I would tend agree with you that older pilots, and especially those not involved in a dedicated recurrrent training program are in fact probably more prone to accidents, many fatal, but I cannot embrace the thought that someone, at say Delta is more prone to accidents than a pilot of say 40 or 30 years of age. Certainly if you looked at Delta's accident record over the last twenty-five years you would not be able to justify your theory. If you have something and it's not some ALPA propoganda, please show us where to find it. And by the way, do I think guys who are say 35 are better sticks than a guy at 55 or 60, probably and that's just one reason you don't see a lot of age 55, F16 pilots. However, stick and rudder alone do not make todays pilots and being 60 does not automatically disqualify you to serve as Capt. on an airliner. I guess we can just sit back and watch the age 60+ ICAO guys and see how many of them create a smoking hulk on the ground like we had over at Comair last month. Anyone care to start a pool for this contest? I doubt that it will be anything worth noticing.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

ALPA President Henry Duffy’s made this statement in the 1990 Baker v FAA “It has never been my belief that professional expertise diminishes at age 60, on the contrary, our senior members possess a wealth of knowledge, aviation history, and insight that have been developed through their years of experience, which are irreplaceable”. He also stated during this testimony “Pilots over 55 comprise 5-6% of the total membership. The other 95% selfishly view the forced retirement of older pilots as their guaranteed path and a God given right to their promotions!”

Andy: Was Hank Duffy just lying in this testimony? That is the question for now. Can you address this please.

 

[Andy]

Oh Andy come on now. Please direct us to your statistics regarding the older "airline" pilots and their increased accident rates.

The graph on page 24 says it all.
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_3.pdfh

 

[Andy]

Andy: Was Hank Duffy just lying in this testimony? That is the question for now. Can you address this please.

You owe me many answers. When will YOU start answering them?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

All the previous arguments of this type make no difference any more now that the USA is going to allow foreigners to fly into the same US airports in the same types of planes beginning 11/23. If they can do it, and have been doing it world wide for many years that is the best proof of safety. No one believes that Canada and Mexico or the Asians or the Europeans can fly any more safely than the Americans.

 

[Phaedrus]

Andy: that page no longer exists.

 

[Andy]

Andy: that page no longer exists.

Looks like an additional letter got attached to the link. I'm unable to edit it, so here's a repost:
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/age60/media/age60_3.pdf

Again, page 24.

 

[bubbers44]

Since they couldn't be flying airliners after 60 they were probably flying light aircraft so the graph doesn't mean much.

 

[Andy]

Since they couldn't be flying airliners after 60 they were probably flying light aircraft so the graph doesn't mean much.

OK, you didn't read the years that the data was collected, nor the groups. Prior to Dec 1999, regional/commuter operations could operate under part 135 and pilots could fly past age 60. It's all there in the text of the report.
Also, the text below the chart clearly states that it was professional pilots in part 121/135 operations holding an ATP and Class I medical.