Patriot328 said:...It's not 5 more years as a captain like the people that are pushing this. It's five more years as a junior FO. The increase in longterm pay is nil for someone on the bottom of a seniority list...
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Patriot328 said:...It's not 5 more years as a captain like the people that are pushing this. It's five more years as a junior FO. The increase in longterm pay is nil for someone on the bottom of a seniority list...
Patriot328 said:I think most junior (young) pilots do not want to see the age 60 rule changed because it will stagnate their careers for five years on the bottom of a seniority list (probably a tad less because not everyone will go to age 65 even if allowed). It's not 5 more years as a captain like the people that are pushing this. It's five more years as a junior FO. The increase in longterm pay is nil for someone on the bottom of a seniority list. Also, the unintended consequences of this will be much more stringent medical exams that will probably cause more people to medical out before 60, let alone 65.
Not exactly.Patriot328 said:If they change the rule today, everyone that is a captain right now gets five more years in their seat.
Whistlin' Dan said:Not exactly.
Everyone that is on the seniority list gets 5 more years in their seat. ALL seats...including Captain. Yes, it's "5 more years as a junior F/O" with sucky schedules, etc. It's also 5 more years as a senior F/O, with sweet layovers and holidays off. It's 5 more years as a junior Captain, (back to the sucky schedules) and 5 more years at the top of the heap, flying easy schedules with lots of credit hours, and plowing half your income back into your retirement...a retirement that can no longer be guaranteed by either your company OR the government.
Whistlin' Dan said:Not exactly.
Everyone that is on the seniority list gets 5 more years in their seat. ALL seats...including Captain. Yes, it's "5 more years as a junior F/O" with sucky schedules, etc. It's also 5 more years as a senior F/O, with sweet layovers and holidays off. It's 5 more years as a junior Captain, (back to the sucky schedules) and 5 more years at the top of the heap, flying easy schedules with lots of credit hours, and plowing half your income back into your retirement...a retirement that can no longer be guaranteed by either your company OR the government.
It's true that increasing the retirement age will reduce the need for pilots. However, people not on a seniority list don't concern me that much.
The bottom line is simply this...Do you want to spend (assuming you're hired at 30) 30 years as an airline pilot and 5 years working at Home Depot, or 35 years as an airline pilot? That's it. Thirty years in this profession, or thirty-five? That's the only question you have to ask yourself. All this cr*pola about what the rules used to be, and what our "expectations" were when we started, are specious at best. What do you want to be doing between the ages of 60 and 65? Driving a jet, or driving a forklift?
If you tell me you're looking forward to driving the forklift, I'll understand. Not everybody is cut-out to be a pilot.
This is so simple, my kids understand it. My neighbors understand it. Judging by the way he wags his tail, even my dog understands it. I don't understand why people that are supposed to be intelligent, deductive thinkers don't understand it.
The only substantive reason I've yet to hear for not rescinding the "Age 60 " rule is to accelerate upgrades throughout the ranks. The junior guys would like to legislate the senior guys out of their jobs. If safety really were the issue, and they wanted to do some "selective thinning of the herd" in order to get me out of my seat, there are ways they could do it that wouldn't penalize me for having the foresight to be born before them, and in a manner that would enhance safety.
Simply tighten up on standards.
Think about it. We could encourage our employers to task us with multiple, compounded emergencies during upgrades and recurrent checks. Ask our line-check airmen to fail a certain number of crewmembers each quarter. Have pro-standards adopt certain height/weight/fitness standards for all crewmembers, with discipline "up to and including termination" for any crewmember not in compliance. We could stop worrying about how old a guy is, and start worrying about how to get the dead meats and weak-sticks off the property. You'd get the enhanced safety that management and the public wants, along with the quicker upgrades that you want.
That's assuming you're still around.
I have a feeling that when it's your a$$ that's facing the chopper, you're going to become a whole lot kinder and gentler to your brothers in the profession.
Klako said:...opposing a change to the age 60 rule and that is age discrimination, nothing more and nothing less.
Whistlin' Dan said:DUDE, it's 5 more years at EVERY seat! Why is that so hard for people to understand?
If I'm not mistaken, the "Age 60" rule that you are so against changing goes back to about 1958 or so. If you want to keep the rules as they were then, fine. But let's keep ALL the rules, OK? For example...Sluggo_63 said:You know, if I were you, I'd stop flying now, because you have a whole lot of lobbying to get done on behalf of yourself and these other groups who are 'discriminated' against. Or is it only about you?
GuppyWN said:I'm sure someone has done the math but I'm gonna have another go at it. I'm 37. I'm an FO. Captains at my airline make roughly 80k/yr more than me. I am "guessing" that the length of stay in my seat could be another 3 years. That's 240k lost cash. Compound that 3 times (money doubles every 7 years at 7%) and you're at a cool million bucks. Plus the loss of profit sharing, 401k match and you can see that it will cost me well over a $1,000,000 to sit another 3 years in the right seat.
If I stay from 60 to 65 I COULD earn another $1,000,000 THEN. I'd rather have it now cause there is no promise that I'll be healthy when I'm 61 and beyond.
This is all demographics. The older you are the more you care about this issue. I'll ask all of you one question.
Were you riding the "this is discrimination" horse 20 years ago? 10 years ago? I doubt it. ALPA is still against Age 60 repeal. Guys have lost thousands or millions in pensions. 5 years ago they were fine but now they don't have the money to retire it's "discrimination."
ICAO will go to 65 for ONE pilot in the cockpit in November. What if I'm a 61 year old FO and my Captain is also 61. I don't get to fly that trip. THAT IS DICRIMINATION!
Let's all just be honest with one another and tell it like it is. It's not about age discrimination, it's about $$$.
Gup