Age 60 informal poll

[b757driver]

But FAA instrument procedures are substantially different than ICAO instrument procedures. Are we in violation there since we don't use the ICAO standard in our country. There is an exemption to BATA. I don't think we are in violation of the treaty because we have a lower age.

Going to age 65 may allow foreign airlines a five year hiatus in hiring, then it will resume at the same pace as before. It's just all the junior pilots get the "privilege" of staying in their seat an additional 5 years.

This is a poor argument.

Actually, so is yours!
Another 5 years, so what? Some people are on furlough for 5 years, others have been looking for a "decent" job for twice that time! No one said it was a perfect world, let alone in this business.....
Your time will come, just try to be a little be patient - that's a virtue by the way.
Think of it this way, it ALSO gives you an extra 5 years at the end when you are earning the big paychecks.
All this "we want it and want it now, move over, it's my turn" is getting old .
It's coming and you might as well get used to it as we eventually get in line with the rest of the world.

 

[Gorilla]

I'd like to know when the guys that support age 65 went on record. Were they lobbying when they were 36? Maybe. More than likely, not.

I've got a funny feeling they happily moved up for decades due to the mandatory retirements at their carriers. Only when it became their turn did the rule magically become "unfair."

Someone lobbying out of altruism does so even when it does not apply to them. An example: caucasians who participated in the civil rights movements of the '50's and '60's. If you guys were working towards repeal of age 60 many, many years ago, then I honor and respect that. If not, I just find it a bit odd that this supposedly highly unfair and "evil" rule was ignored to your benefit. If the rule is flat-out wrong, you should have been working towards its repeal all your career.

 

[b757driver]

I've got a funny feeling they happily moved up for decades due to the mandatory retirements at their carriers. Only when it became their turn did the rule magically become "unfair."

If you guys were working towards repeal of age 60 many, many years ago, then I honor and respect that. If not, I just find it a bit odd that this supposedly highly unfair and "evil" rule was ignored to your benefit. If the rule is flat-out wrong, you should have been working towards its repeal all your career.

Of course you are also making a BIG assumption here in that each and everyone of us has been with the same carrier all our entire career with normal progression. While this may have been true a few decades ago, it is more the "norm" to have had many jobs and as we all know, it's to the bottom you go as you start over. Many are forced to work overseas to continue earning, never mind the age 60 rule, but just to support their families. It's not always about individual choices but almost always the company that they chose. You cannot get it right every time.

Happily moved up? Maybe for some, but a lot have never really moved at all!

 

[Sluggo_63]

Actually, so is yours!
Another 5 years, so what? Some people are on furlough for 5 years, others have been looking for a "decent" job for twice that time!

Yeah... I was and many of my close friends still are. I'm sure they would like to get back to their good jobs, and not five years from now, either.

No one said it was a perfect world, let alone in this business.....
Your time will come, just try to be a little be patient - that's a virtue by the way.

Yes, patience is a virtue. But avarice is a sin (a cardinal one, at that), and that's what the over-60 crowd is guilty of.

Think of it this way, it ALSO gives you an extra 5 years at the end when you are earning the big paychecks.

No it isn't. This is the biggest fallacy that you over-60 people throw around. It gives YOU an extra 5 years at the end. It gives me an extra 5 years in my seat.
I'll give you an example. Let's say that without the over-60 law changing, I was hired at my carrier at 35 and can expect to be a captain in 10 years, at 45. Then I can spend 15 years as a captain and retire at 60.
Now... I get hired at 35 and expect to be a captain in 10 years. Five years into my employment, the age-60 law changes to 65. So now I'm 40 and everyone senior to me retires at 65. There is now a 5 year pause in movement. Those who are captains remain so for 5 additional years. I remain a first or second officer for the additional 5. After the five year stop, everyone starts hitting 65. I'm now 45 years old, and start moving up the list again (old rules, I would have been a captain now). Now when I'm 50, I get to upgrade. So let's see... I get to be a captain for... that's right! Fifteen years! Same as before the age 60 rule, but the difference is I amassed additional pay as a first officer, not at the end with "the big paycheck" as you said. All the while you and your ilk got it at the captain's rate.
Add to this that I don't want to work until 60. I want to spend some time with my family. And don't tell me "you'll still be able to retire at 60 if you want," because you KNOW that'll change. Plus, then I get five less years as a captain (ten less than you).

All this "we want it and want it now, move over, it's my turn" is getting old .
It's coming and you might as well get used to it as we eventually get in line with the rest of the world.

Right... and all this, I'm going to get mine, to heck with you is getting old, too

 

[Sluggo_63]

Of course you are also making a BIG assumption here in that each and everyone of us has been with the same carrier all our entire career with normal progression.

To quote a "wise" person on this thread (look above) while talking to a furloughee...

No one said it was a perfect world, let alone in this business.....

While this may have been true a few decades ago, it is more the "norm" to have had many jobs and as we all know, it's to the bottom you go as you start over.

Again...

No one said it was a perfect world, let alone in this business.....

Many are forced to work overseas to continue earning, never mind the age 60 rule, but just to support their families. It's not always about individual choices but almost always the company that they chose. You cannot get it right every time.

Happily moved up? Maybe for some, but a lot have never really moved at all!

And one more time... let's all say it together...

No one said it was a perfect world, let alone in this business.....

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

[/font][/color]
Why does the ICAO rule (and the proposed FAA law) require that one person up front has to be under 60. I have not heard a good argument for that that doesn't mention safety.

The answer is simple and obvious. Change is always done in steps. First it was the ICAO rule that only the SIC could be over age 60 with the PIC under age 60. Then, when there no problems or issues with that order, the next change is logical, so as to allow the PIC to be over age 60 as long as the SIC is under age 60. Next, assuming there are no issues with that step, both pilots will be allowed to be over age 60.

THAT WAS EASY. HIT THE EASY BUTTON.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

[/font][/color]We have been patient. You have had your turn (in your case for 37 years). Now it's time to let others have the same opportunity you have had.

This is as good one. You mentioned this because I guess you were unaware that the grass isn't as green on the other side of the fence as you think. Maybe it's just Astroturf, it only looks that green to you from a distance.

All of the complainers like to suggest their careers will be so bad and it will take so long for them to become captains and so forth. And they like to suggest that everyone age 59 has had it so great all their careers. Well the fact of the matter is that those who are 59 now went through lots of big problems and recessions. Many of us went through several airlines or had to endure Vietnam.

Now in my case, my airline career may look good when you look at where I am now, but it is also true that in my seniority position at UAL all of my newhire class was furloughed twice, once for once year and once for 3 years. Progress was also slow with minimum upgrade to F/O from the back seat at 15-years. And to 737 captain in a total from date of hire of about 20plus years, and to 777 captain at 30 years.

Of course now, the upgrade to F/O is instant because there are no F/E's and the upgrade to Capt will be much less than the 20-years it was for those in my group.

Now I hear people talk of "5-more years." This just is not going to be the case. Many who want to fly past age-60 will quit (retire) at say 62 and others may develop some kind a medical condition that will disqualify them from the Class I medical.

So again, it's patience in this career that is a virtue, just as most all those age-59 have had to have. All things will come to those who can wait. Everyone's time will come. This is fact I have had to believe and I have found it to be true.

 

[Klako]

The disturbing idea that forced retirement is essential to promoting the welfare of the majority has an eerie foreshadowing of ageism themes illustrated in movies like Soylent Green and Logan's Run, where a person's maximum age is strictly legislated. These movies protray a society where when people reach an age limit, they are executed by a dystopian future society in which population and the consumption of resources becomes a managed equilibrium through the simple expediency of killing everyone upon reaching a particular age, thus neatly avoiding the issue of overpopulation and competition for employment and food. Young people vehemently support their system of eliminating old people until they approach their own termination age.

 

[miles otoole]

Now in my case, my airline career may look good when you look at where I am now, but it is also true that in my seniority position at UAL all of my newhire class was furloughed twice, once for once year and once for 3 years. Progress was also slow with minimum upgrade to F/O from the back seat at 15-years. And to 737 captain in a total from date of hire of about 20plus years, and to 777 captain at 30 years.

Of course now, the upgrade to F/O is instant because there are no F/E's and the upgrade to Capt will be much less than the 20-years it was for those in my group.

If this is true, it kinda defeats Sluggos argument. Upgrade to CA at WN and CAL, for example is 7 years conservatively. Heck, it's 3 at Airtran and JBLU. UAL today must certainly be less than 20 years. If you in fact earn an additional 5 years of F/O pay, you can add that to the 15 years of much higher CA pay. I guess the real argument isn't about safety, it's about wanting to retire at 60 (which you can still do with a 65 age cap).
If in Sluggos case, he is unable to retire comfortably at 60 with the next 15 years as an F/O (worse case) and the following 10 as a CA, someone has too many toys or girlfriends at home.

 

[b757driver]

This is as good one. You mentioned this because I guess you were unaware that the grass isn't as green on the other side of the fence as you think. Maybe it's just Astroturf, it only looks that green to you from a distance.

All of the complainers like to suggest their careers will be so bad and it will take so long for them to become captains and so forth. And they like to suggest that everyone age 59 has had it so great all their careers. Well the fact of the matter is that those who are 59 now went through lots of big problems and recessions. Many of us went through several airlines or had to endure Vietnam.

Now in my case, my airline career may look good when you look at where I am now, but it is also true that in my seniority position at UAL all of my newhire class was furloughed twice, once for once year and once for 3 years. Progress was also slow with minimum upgrade to F/O from the back seat at 15-years. And to 737 captain in a total from date of hire of about 20plus years, and to 777 captain at 30 years.

Of course now, the upgrade to F/O is instant because there are no F/E's and the upgrade to Capt will be much less than the 20-years it was for those in my group.

Now I hear people talk of "5-more years." This just is not going to be the case. Many who want to fly past age-60 will quit (retire) at say 62 and others may develop some kind a medical condition that will disqualify them from the Class I medical.

So again, it's patience in this career that is a virtue, just as most all those age-59 have had to have. All things will come to those who can wait. Everyone's time will come. This is fact I have had to believe and I have found it to be true.

So true!
Many assumptions that all is, or has been rosey, for everyone at the higher end of the scale.
Like Undaunted, I know many captains (and FOs) who have not had an easy ride in their career and if there is a law in the offing that will enable them to continue for a while longer, then so be it. Far from me to deny a person their right to work solely based on age. I believe that is called age discrimination and is against the law in the US, is it not?
And.....if you want to retire at 60 or even 55 or anywhere in between and feel you have amassed enough wealth to be able to do that, then good luck to you. But never forget, not everyone is in the same situation and I would never suggest to a person.
You do what you feel is right for you, but please do not foist an outdated, soon-to-be-changed law onto those that don't share your views.
Regardless whatever the argument, it's coming, so you might as well get used to it.

 

[Phaedrus]

Boo hoo.
Gimme mine.
Be patient.
It's good for everyone.
***Synopsis compliments of Phaedrus, INC.***

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Much of what I have earned has been given to ALPA, as well as the ALPA PAC so you (and your colleagues) can have a better career. How much have you given to the PAC? Also much of my money has been given to the furlough fund to pay for the health insurance for the furloughees like you when they left and needed help. I would guess that you were a beneficiary of this assistance? And if so I would think a nice thank you is appropriate.

Andy, I'm still waiting for an answer as to how much money you have given to ALPA and the ALPA-PAC.

And how about a thank you for the large amount of money my senority group voted to give to the furloughees like you for the much needed health insurance for you and your family. Many of your group have said thank you for the help. I have seen the thank you notes posted on the ALPA board, I but all I hear from you is "quit now old man so I can get promoted."

Do you have any comment on this?

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Like I said, if this POS law passes, then it’s “back of the bus” for the over 60 crowd. It’s the only fair integration for those of us hired under the Age 60 retirement rule. For those over age 60 that are working on their 3rd marriage and are sending kids through college, you would still have a job and some money coming in, but you do it from the FE or FO seat.

See, you guys that want Age 65, you want your cake and eat it too -- all at the junior’s guy’s expense. You want the windfall coming from retaining your seat an additional five years. Again – stealing money right out of the pockets of those junior.

Some knucklehead was even talking about upgrading directly to the right seat as being some sort of extra perk. The guys that are retiring now, most were at the highest pay (A scale) for many years and they still don’t have enough pay to retire. Many junior guys now are stuck with low pay and stagnation. There are still thousand of furlough pilots on the street. Talk about eating your young.

This is just a selfish scam from the older guys. Don’t buy into it. This is nothing more than abrogation of seniority.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[miles otoole]

I'll give you an example. Let's say that without the over-60 law changing, I was hired at my carrier at 35 and can expect to be a captain in 10 years, at 45. Then I can spend 15 years as a captain and retire at 60.
Now... I get hired at 35 and expect to be a captain in 10 years. Five years into my employment, the age-60 law changes to 65. So now I'm 40 and everyone senior to me retires at 65. There is now a 5 year pause in movement. Those who are captains remain so for 5 additional years. I remain a first or second officer for the additional 5. After the five year stop, everyone starts hitting 65. I'm now 45 years old, and start moving up the list again (old rules, I would have been a captain now). Now when I'm 50, I get to upgrade. So let's see... I get to be a captain for... that's right! Fifteen years! Same as before the age 60 rule, but the difference is I amassed additional pay as a first officer, not at the end with "the big paycheck" as you said. All the while you and your ilk got it at the captain's rate.
Add to this that I don't want to work until 60. I want to spend some time with my family. And don't tell me "you'll still be able to retire at 60 if you want," because you KNOW that'll change. Plus, then I get five less years as a captain (ten less than you).

OK, point taken. One thing you have on your side is time. 25-years to age 60, to be exact. Plenty of time to be able to retire comfortably. I'll even prove it to you. With an average annual salary over the next 25 years of $100,000 (conservatively low), if you contribute $15k with a 3% match to your 401K and earn 9% a year and don't save another dime, you'll see $1,600,000. Not too shabby. Heck, save another 10K a year, on average, and you'll be able to squeeze by with much more. Put your 2nd wife to work and heck, you just may even be able to retire at 55.

 

[Sluggo_63]

OK, point taken. One thing you have on your side is time. 25-years to age 60, to be exact. Plenty of time to be able to retire comfortably. I'll even prove it to you. With an average annual salary over the next 25 years of $100,000 (conservatively low), if you contribute $15k with a 3% match to your 401K and earn 9% a year and don't save another dime, you'll see $1,600,000. Not too shabby. Heck, save another 10K a year, on average, and you'll be able to squeeze by with much more. Put your 2nd wife to work and heck, you just may even be able to retire at 55.

That hired at 35 number was just an example. I'm a furloughed United guy. I've had the last 5+ years off. Also, first house/first wife. Hopefully it'll stay that way (okay, I have plans to buy another house. I'm trying to keep the wife, though)
I'm not too good with the math. Can you work out how much I'd have in the bank if I had UndauntedFlyers career. Hired at United at 22, so that's 38 years there. The last 18 as a captain (I think that's pretty conservative). So let's use an average salary of $75,000 for the first 20 years and $200,000 for the last 18 (average). What does that come out to... approximately.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Andy, I'm still waiting for an answer as to how much money you have given to ALPA and the ALPA-PAC.

And how about a thank you for the large amount of money my senority group voted to give to the furloughees like you for the much needed health insurance for you and your family. Many of your group have said thank you for the help. I have seen the thank you notes posted on the ALPA board, I but all I hear from you is "quit now old man so I can get promoted."

Do you have any comment on this?

Yes, on behalf of my fellow furloughees, thank you for your contribution to the health care fund. Personally, I didn't need it, but I know there are many who did. So, seriously, thank you (I posted on Boyle's my thanks long ago). I don't know if you know this, but it did took over a year for the UAL MEC to get that passed. In the meantime, a lot of furloughees were paying COBRA rates (have you seen them). DAL, AMR, NWA etc had their healthcare costs paid for within a month or so.

 

[Sluggo_63]

Now in my case, my airline career may look good when you look at where I am now, but it is also true that in my seniority position at UAL all of my newhire class was furloughed twice, once for once year and once for 3 years. Progress was also slow with minimum upgrade to F/O from the back seat at 15-years. And to 737 captain in a total from date of hire of about 20plus years, and to 777 captain at 30 years.

Really... four years of furlough. Double that, and that's what a lot of us are facing.
It took you 30 years to get to the left seat of the 777? If you were hired in 1969 at 22, You only got to be a 777 captain in 1999? When I was there, I seem to remember that seat going much junior than guys with 30 years on property. Me thinks there is some exaggeration going on.
Let's see... I was hired in 2000 as a flight engineer, maybe get recalled in 2008 (not going to take it, but just for arguments sake) when should I make captain. Do they still have that seniority calculator? Let me know.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Really... four years of furlough. Double that, and that's what a lot of us are facing.
Fifteen years to go from S/O to F/O? I have a feeling that might be a bit of an exaggeration, maybe ten years, but for now, I'll accept it.
Let's see... I was hired in 2000 as a flight engineer, maybe get recalled in 2008 (not going to take it, but just for arguments sake) when should I make captain. Do they still have that seniority calculator? Let me know.

FYI, many of my group who were a little junior to me were furloughed for 7-years, and the upgrade time to F/O was 15-years at a minumum and for those hired in 69 that were junior to me it was longer. That is fact. Believe it because it is true.

And you and your group are welcome for the help with the health insurance. We wanted to help because it was the right thing to do. Just like the strike of '85 to keep the "B" scale off the property which was successful.

So now our group needs help and all we hear is how we have had it made our whole career. This just is not true. Many of us need help just like many of the furloughees did when you went out. And of course we did help.

It might interest you to know that when I was furloughed there was no help at all and that is why we did what could be done to help the current furloughees. We remembered and now what we are getting from people like Andy is a kick in the butt and name calling. What kind of pilot group is this?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

It took you 30 years to get to the left seat of the 777? If you were hired in 1969 at 22, You only got to be a 777 captain in 1999? When I was there, I seem to remember that seat going much junior than guys with 30 years on property. Me thinks there is some exaggeration going on.
Let's see... I was hired in 2000 as a flight engineer, maybe get recalled in 2008 (not going to take it, but just for arguments sake) when should I make captain. Do they still have that seniority calculator? Let me know.

I took took the first 777 captain bid available and completed training on Feb 2, 1999. I even bid out of my domicile to get the award. Almost 30 years less a few months. That is fact.

So you see many on this board and even those who were with UAL have much misunderstanding of the facts regarding our situation.

I'm in great health and enjoy my work as anyone on this board would. And to be honest, I do not believe you or anyone else would want to quit now if they were in my situation.

Is there a member who if they were in my situation would just want to throw everything they have worked for out the window and quit just because they are age 60? I don't think so.

 

[miles otoole]

Really... four years of furlough. Double that, and that's what a lot of us are facing.

Yeah, and most of your furloughed peers are firmly entrenched at CAL, WN, JBLU, FDX, NJA, FX, CS, and UPS with NO plans to come back. In fact, most are closer to upgrade than they are from their original furlough date. Talk about exaggeration. Apparently, you are implying that all your buds will have been furloughed 8 years when it's all said and done, however, where they are now is as good or better compared to the options furloughees had in the 70s and 80s. LOL.