Age 60 informal poll

[Sluggo_63]

...he understands the pilot group is divided right down the middle, on the age 60 issue in particular...

This is disingenuous and you know it. It's the same propaganda spewed by the APAAD crowd. It is not down the middle. Maybe, just maybe (and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here) it's split down the 75/25 line, and probably much less if you let the furloughees have a voice in this. At least be honest, right now there is a large minority of pilots that want this rule changes. Vocal? Yes. Organized? Yes... but still a minority.

 

[g-code]

Management changed the rules? So, when Mars attacks, you will blame the martians? If they attack, should we raise the age to 66? Why can't you compare ASA to other airlines? Everyone makes a choice, but no one is safe from a broken promise, and that is what a pension is. Look at other industries like the auto industry to follow that line of promises. Does the Gov't have to guarantee 401Ks too?

Do I want to fly a 777 at DL. You bet. Do I want to do it flying into BOM late at night with someone who has lost his situational awareness and hearing (both not checked really in medicals---you and I know that to be true), NO WAY. If you want to change some more rules, how about marrying your sister. People do that in the hills of Kentuky, so maybe we should all do that.

And, I am an arse you say? Can't handle a debate? Why does ICAO want to limit (a guideline put out by them) the number of over age 60 pilots in each cockpit? Please answer that. Safety?

Bye Bye--General Lee

I understand your argument but I strongly disagree. Take UA for example. The pilots there will recieve less than a FOURTH of what they would have from UA. Because they retire at 60, and not 65, they do not recieve the full PBGC benefits.

It is not about everytime something happens, raise the age. The pension, in my mind is a huge issue, but there is also that of safety. I think that PLENTY of guys could fly past 60, and perhaps they should have a more stringent exam.

Finally, General I pray to God that you are not comparing pilots to autoworkers. Totally different jobs with totally different levels of sacrifice, and both you and I know about THAT.

 

[slaquer5]

You are stupid. That was thrown in there to make a point. That point being that the pensions are just promises. Should we also expect our 401Ks to be guaranteed just like we thought our pensions would be? No. Got it yet?

Bye Bye--General Lee

I am thinking you are a child and not a pilot. So do you have today off? 401 K is protected. I am thinking you need to go to summer school you moron.

 

[Andy]

There you go only thinking about yourself, a junior pilot (puke) and how tuff it is for you and your friends. Personally I'm sick of it. What about the guys who have turned 60 in the last five years. Where is your concern for them? If the law changes are you interested in that group? I know your answer and it's: NO. That's because from your post all you really care about is yourself and stealing some senior pilot’s livelihood.

Ah, us junior pilot pukes. Those of us who are starting to get recalled are hoping that we can participate in an ALPA poll on this subject. Any guesses how the returning furloughees will vote?

I find it interesting that, now that it's unlikely that the rule will change prior to you turning 60, you are suddenly concerned about those that have retired in the last 5 years. Not too long ago, you didn't give a hoot about them. Like it or not, IF this changes at some arbitrary day in the future, there will be no lookback.
At this point, the only way that the age will change is if the Senate can get an omnibus appropriations bill passed with the amendment buried in HR 5576. I now see it as unlikely that the Dems will allow an omnibus appropriations bill to pass in the 109th; they'll CR (continuing resolution) those appropriations bills into the 110th. In the 110th, this doesn't stand a chance of passing as currently drafted.

For those that want to change the retirement age, you need to change your strategy. You'd have less resistance if you wanted to stay on after 60 as an FO. If you truly love flying and need to get a few more years until medicare kicks in, that will solve your problems. Or is it just about your egos and getting top dollar?

 

[Patriot328]

I am thinking you are a child and not a pilot. So do you have today off? 401 K is protected. I am thinking you need to go to summer school you moron.

Last I checked, a 401k, like anything in life, isn't guarunteed....

 

[slaquer5]

Last I checked, a 401k, like anything in life, isn't guarunteed....

Do tell me how many people you know that have lost there 401K ? I know lots that have lost there pension.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Now that it's unlikely that the rule will change prior to you turning 60, you are suddenly concerned about those that have retired in the last 5 years.

Andy: Please, where did you get that information about the rule being unlikely to change. Haven't you been reading the papers as to what is happening?

The likelihood for change is now greater that ever before and it’s getting better each day.

Haven’t you seen the letters to the Administrator from the 10 most powerful Senators regarding this issue? Or the one from Rep. Gibbons either? Haven’t you seen the letter to the Administrator by James Hoffa, Pres. of the Teamsters? Haven’t you seen the new ALPA president's views on age 60 and uniting the membership? Capt. Prater wants the rule to change Andy, this all says that change is in the wind, not the status quo.

Andy, I will agree that the deal could be derailed, so it’s not done yet, but there is enough to be more optimistic for change with each day, certainly, more so than 90, 60 or 30 days ago.

I have one question: Do you think that ALPA or the FAA or the legislators on Capital Hill want to go through all this again next year? No Way!

Wouldn’t it really be much easier for all concerned to just stop the discrimination against Americans now instead of hearing about this every day of every year from now until you turn 59?

If age 60 passes this year then that will be the end to the constant agitation on this issue.

So ask yourself, if you were a Representative or a Senator or even the FAA Administrator or especially the new incoming Sec. of Transportation, would you want the agitation to continue or stop? That is what will be a big factor in the final decisions and outcome.

 

[Andy]

Undaunted Flyer, I'm just a junior pilot puke. The concept that the rule is unlikely to change is merely my personal opinion based on the forecast political balance after Nov 7. I read the tea leaves much differently than you. But again, I'm just a junior pilot puke; I obviously don't know nearly as much about this technical stuff as senior pilots.

 

[jbDC9]

Wouldn’t it really be much easier for all concerned to just stop the discrimination against Americans now instead of hearing about this every day of every year from now until you turn 59?

Oh for cryin' out loud, would you and Klako shut your yaps about this being discrimination already?? If it's upped to 65, are you gonna whine about discrimination in another 5 years? If you put a number on it, any age is discriminatory. So, now that we're against age discrimination, how about we rally the FAA against the age minimums of 17 for the PVT ticket, 18 for the Commercial, 23 for the ATP, or perhaps the max age of 30 for hiring as an air traffic controller... or how about we eliminate the drinking age altogther, would that make you happy and feel less discriminated against?? But, I don't hear you whining about these irrelevant things because it doesn't affect your wallet.

Idiots.

Admit it, it's all about your ego and the money... mainly the money. I can understand the argument of losing your pension and needing more time to make it up. Yep, it's the dollar signs. But when you morons start spouting off about discrimination and junior pukes stealing the livelihoods of senior guys, well that's just complete and utter bullsh!t.

C'mon, say it, it's all about the cash...

 

[Patriot328]

Do tell me how many people you know that have lost there 401K ? I know lots that have lost there pension.

Any investmet can get screwed up for various reasons...

http://www.retirement-4-u.com/401k.htm

401K Planning Information
Enron’s legacy: How safe is your 401K?
AARP Bulletin (www.aarp.org/bulletin)
The sudden collapse of Enron Corp. in which many workers and retirees lost their retirement savings, is leading employee advocates to ask:
How safe are American workers’ 401k assets considered by many to be the cornerstone of a successful retirement plan, when a company goes belly up?
“There are no guarantees,” acknowledges David Wray, president of the Profit Sharing/401k Council of America, based in Chicago. ‘The 401K is about investing and getting the returns. It’s a wealth accumulation program,” he says, “and you can’t have wealth accumulation and protection at the same time.”
Employees at Enron learned that the hard way. Hundreds of them not only lost their jobs but their 401k retirement funds, largely made up of company stock now worth under a dollar a share as well. .......

 

[General Lee]

Andy: Please, where did you get that information about the rule being unlikely to change. Haven't you been reading the papers as to what is happening?

The likelihood for change is now greater that ever before and it’s getting better each day.

Haven’t you seen the letters to the Administrator from the 10 most powerful Senators regarding this issue? Or the one from Rep. Gibbons either? Haven’t you seen the letter to the Administrator by James Hoffa, Pres. of the Teamsters? Haven’t you seen the new ALPA president's views on age 60 and uniting the membership? Capt. Prater wants the rule to change Andy, this all says that change is in the wind, not the status quo.

Andy, I will agree that the deal could be derailed, so it’s not done yet, but there is enough to be more optimistic for change with each day, certainly, more so than 90, 60 or 30 days ago.

I have one question: Do you think that ALPA or the FAA or the legislators on Capital Hill want to go through all this again next year? No Way!

Wouldn’t it really be much easier for all concerned to just stop the discrimination against Americans now instead of hearing about this every day of every year from now until you turn 59?

If age 60 passes this year then that will be the end to the constant agitation on this issue.

So ask yourself, if you were a Representative or a Senator or even the FAA Administrator or especially the new incoming Sec. of Transportation, would you want the agitation to continue or stop? That is what will be a big factor in the final decisions and outcome.

Do you think this is age discrimination? So, you would also like the retirement age of policemen and firemen to be raised too? Sure, some policemen and firemen can probably do the job after 55, but would you like a 60 year old fireman carrying you down a burning stairwell? It is the same thing with pilots, and age can catch up to them too. So, 10 years ago did you bring this issue up with your past Captains? What did you say to them? Probably "GOOD LUCK AND SEE YA." You care now because it is close to your retirement and you may not be financially ready. You really should have invested more. A lot of people make that mistake, and it is unfortunate. Your past Captains may have had the same problem, but you probably didn't tell them they should stay and work more. It was probably a safety idea you had not to tell them that too.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

This senior puke, as some of you choose to call me, a 37-year ALPA member, is in support of the leadership and the new President. John Prater is in favor of unity, not disunity as has been the past situation. Clearly, disunity is the order of the day on this board on this issue.

"A house divided against itself can not stand," is a quote I have used many times on this board. But those opposed to age 60 change have said they don't understand this, or how it relates. But now it seems that Capt. Prater shares the house divided view and realizes the importance of reuniting ALPA before the "House" falls.

And regarding age discrimination: That is no longer the issue here. It's discrimination against Americans that's the issue. I really don't think anyone believes that foreigners should be flying airline equipment in this country when Americans can not. Or am I wrong on this?

ALPA is now on the right course. Maybe I'll start wearing my "Battle Star" pin. The one that was so hard earned.

 

[General Lee]

This senior puke, as some of you choose to call me, a 37-year ALPA member, is in support of the leadership and the new President. John Prater is in favor of unity, not disunity as has been the past situation. Clearly, disunity is the order of the day on this board on this issue.

"A house divided against itself can not stand," is a quote I have used many times on this board. But those opposed to age 60 change have said they don't understand this, or how it relates. But now it seems that Capt. Prater shares the house divided view and realizes the importance of reuniting ALPA before the "House" falls.

And regarding age discrimination: That is no longer the issue here. It's discrimination against Americans that's the issue. I really don't think anyone believes that foreigners should be flying airline equipment in this country when Americans can not. Or am I wrong on this?

ALPA is now on the right course. Maybe I'll start wearing my "Battle Star" pin. The one that was so hard earned.

Well, reading Praters opinion on changing the Age 60 rule seemed to me that he would do what the baord told him. That would mean he would probably poll the MEC members, and they would in turn poll their constituents. Well, I bet 60% to 40% (at least) would vote NOT to change the rule. Woerth and Dolan apparently were thinking about supporting the Age 65 initiative, until many groups got in their faces directly at the last pow wow and told them they had better NOT support it, and a day later they changed their stance. You would think it would be half/half (senior vs junior) or (Captain vs FO)--but in reality there are plenty of narrow body Captains that want to be Wide body captains SOONER than LATER. And to top it off, it is all about SAFETY. We all KNOW older pilots have lost some situational awareness (can't be caught in a normal flight physical), some hearing (not caught either), and night vision or depth perception. And why does ICAO reccommmend NOT having two over age 60 pilots in the cockpit at the same time? Why would that be, if they thought that flgith physicals could catch problems? Any idea why they would reccommend that? Hmmmm. Sounds like they are short of pilots in Europe due to Ryanair and Easyjet expansions... AS far as foreingers flying equipment over here, they do it all the time in large corporate jets, even if they are over 60. That is fine. We have Netjet pilots that go over there and they might be over 60 too. Can those foreigners over 60 get hired to fly planes over here domestically? Nope. That is the key. It sure isn't safe, and when one of them does crash, it will become a hot issue and they will be banned. Turkey may allow 100 year olds to drive Taxi cabs around Istanbul. Should we allow that too? But they do.......?



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

First off you talk of a 60/40 split. But the US Air vote was dead even. How is that the case? You say it is safety, but then why vote? We don't vote on safety issues do we? Do you take a vote as to whether to take off into a thunderstorm, and then go with the majority including all the passengers and Flight Attendants?

And even if it were a 60/40 split, that speaks volumes when you consider these words of former ALPA president Hank Duffy:

ALPA President Henry Duffy’s statement. 1990 Baker v FAA “It has never been my belief that professional expertise diminishes at age 60: on the contrary, our senior members possess a wealth of knowledge, aviation history, and insight that have been developed through their years of experience, which are irreplaceable”. He also stated during this testimony “Pilots over 55 comprise 5-6% of the total membership. The other 95% selfishly view the forced retirement of older pilots as their guaranteed path and a God given right to their promotions!”

 

[General Lee]

First off you talk of a 60/40 split. But the US Air vote was dead even. How is that the case? You say it is safety, but then why vote? We don't vote on safety issues do we? Do you take a vote as to whether to take off into a thunderstorm, and then go with the majority including all the passengers and Flight Attendants?

And even if it were a 60/40 split, that speaks volumes when you consider these words of former ALPA president Hank Duffy:

ALPA President Henry Duffy’s statement. 1990 Baker v FAA “It has never been my belief that professional expertise diminishes at age 60: on the contrary, our senior members possess a wealth of knowledge, aviation history, and insight that have been developed through their years of experience, which are irreplaceable”. He also stated during this testimony “Pilots over 55 comprise 5-6% of the total membership. The other 95% selfishly view the forced retirement of older pilots as their guaranteed path and a God given right to their promotions!”

The USAir vote? If you are talking about USAir (not AWA), the most junior pilots have 17 years, if they weren't furloughed. Come on, that is obvious that those senior guys would want to stay longer. Add in the AWA vote, and I bet it goes the other way. As far as ALPA goes, you forgot about all of the regionals too, and most of those guys want to eventually move up to the Majors or LCCs. They won't be able to for years if age 65 passes. You know I am right. It may be 70/30 actually. And, Henry Duffy's statement is irrelevent. He is probably 59 years old too. Prater said he would follow the board's lead, and the board listens to their constituents, or they get voted OUT. 70/30 will be the vote. The APA also stated they are NOT in favor. Why? More than half of their pilots don't want it, just like ALPA. And on top of that, it really isn't safe.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut: First off, I've been ALPA member for 37-years and I have an "Battle Star" pin proving it. And when ALPA had some leadership we made great advancements. That's why the election of John Prater gives me hope for the Association. No more "Woerthless."

Now lets talk about your post: There you go only thinking about yourself, a junior pilot (puke) and how tuff it is for you and your friends. Personally I'm sick of it. What about the guys who have turned 60 in the last five years. Where is your concern for them? If the law changes are you interested in that group? I know your answer and it's: NO. That's because from your post all you really care about is yourself and stealing some senior pilot’s livelihood.

Regarding John Prater: I have great confidence in him because he understands the pilot group is divided right down the middle, on the age 60 issue in particular. John Prater understands what many of us have been trying to tell you and your selfish friends for a long time on this Board.

"United we stand divided we fall" is something Woerthless and many of your friends just do not understand. Failure is the only result by your methods as is the current situation of disunity. But if you know John Prater as you say you do, you must know that your thoughts of advancement my deluding others will not work any longer. Now you may have to advance by the hard way.

Read my posts, I've spoke of those over 65. I'm on record of supporting NO age restriction and rostering and assingments in place of seniority. Where is the greed in that? You're WAY off base on those accusations.

Here is what I think John Prater's vision is: To the extent that we can not seem to get past it, and the fact that ICAO retirement age has changed, and that pensions have been denuded, we need to reconsider age 60 retirement. However, we must equally support initiatives that help the whole profession. It would be far better if we could restore the financial elements that made age 60 retirement possible. I believe it is going to be a priority of his to highlight the fact that airlines now have more money than they ever have and the ink is not dry on the paperwork cancelling the pensions. He is going to talk to Congress about that and push for comprehensive changes and he doesn't intend to leave anyone out. I would like to see a pension/thrift savings plan/railroad type retirement vehicle be implemented for every pilot that flies FAR 121. Something that could act as a backstop to our 401Ks. Additionally, I think that plan should be made available to pilots at least back to 2001, maybe even deregulation. That's the sort of thing I would like to see, and I'm optomistic that will be the sort of fundamental changes we WILL see. I'm sure you think that's preposterous and you would rather just have your seat and your money and everybody else should go to he!! and get out of YOUR business! Bad attitude my friend.

 

[Flybynite]

I believe it is going to be a priority of his to highlight the fact that airlines now have more money than they ever have and the ink is not dry on the paperwork cancelling the pensions. He is going to talk to Congress about that and push for comprehensive changes and he doesn't intend to leave anyone out. I would like to see a pension/thrift savings plan/railroad type retirement vehicle be implemented for every pilot that flies FAR 121. Something that could act as a backstop to our 401Ks. Additionally, I think that plan should be made available to pilots at least back to 2001, maybe even deregulation. That's the sort of thing I would like to see, and I'm optomistic that will be the sort of fundamental changes we WILL see.

Do you have a job or do you just sit around all day thinking this stuff up? The canceled pensions are coming back? I'd bet the bank on that one and at the same time congress will institute drug and alcohol testing for its members. I hear your alarm ringing, time to wake up.

 

[Flopgut]

Maybe I'll start wearing my "Battle Star" pin. The one that was so hard earned.

Who cares if you wear it, start acting like it! YOU need to lead on something other than that which supports you most immediate need. I just re read a good portion of this very long thread and you sound like a child! I have NO idea where you can come up with the selfish accusations you assert in the earlier post. You have managed to go through most of this thread and learn NOTHING, you consider very little of other's opinions. I'm so sick of hearing how great you are and how much you deserve an age change. I've seen pilots lose it all and they got themselves back on track...If you're that great, you can too! If you want my help, find a little humility!

There is a 1 in 3 chance this won't change IMHO. I'm sick of this thread, so I'm about done. Dialog here will be useful in preparing to deal with a change. Those of us who will have to work within rank with pilots like a lot of these age changers have our work cut out for us. It will be like a strike broken with replacement workers. There will be pilots flying out of seniority and some really huge, arrogant egos in the left seat. Doubt it? Read the thread. If this business is to improve/survive post retirement age change, it will be the result of the professionalism of the marginalized, not the recipients of the windfall.

 

[Flopgut]

Do you have a job or do you just sit around all day thinking this stuff up? The canceled pensions are coming back? I'd bet the bank on that one and at the same time congress will institute drug and alcohol testing for its members. I hear your alarm ringing, time to wake up.

You familiar with the TSP? What the Railroad offers and why? There is plenty to go on in this effort and the time is just about right. Let the program run like the PBGC and draw the funds from every FAR 121 carrier. A combination of years service and age earns a FAR 121 pilot a certain dollar amount. What's wrong with that? Beats changing retirement age five more times.

 

[General Lee]

You familiar with the TSP? What the Railroad offers and why? There is plenty to go on in this effort and the time is just about right. Let the program run like the PBGC and draw the funds from every FAR 121 carrier. A combination of years service and age earns a FAR 121 pilot a certain dollar amount. What's wrong with that? Beats changing retirement age five more times.

I think we should change the retirement age when the stock market crashes again, and when Mars attacks! Why not? Many things can happen, except people aging and becoming dangerous.....


Bye Bye--General Lee