Age 60 informal poll

[Flopgut]

The B plan at UAL is just like a 401k. When you think you have enough money then you can retire. There is no IRS penalty for withdrawing money after a person is 59.5 years old as it is with all 401k type plans. If the pilot retirement age goes to 65 then pilots may or may not work until that age. As I said, when you have enough money you can retire. Personally I think there are many pilots who will not go to 65. They may retire at 62 they say.

Of course a defined contribution plan such as a 401k is the future of all retirement plans in America. It is also called work until you can no longer work because you never know if you have enough cash socked away unless you know how long you will live. This country will not permit defined benefit (pension) plans to continue. Personally, I think there will be big problems for legacy corporations like GM where an employee can start working at 18 and work for 30 years, retiring at 48 years old on 80% of their salary and receive that for 32 years if they live be be 80. So how can any company possibly continure to compete when 50% of their payrole goes to retired unproductive ex-employees? They can not.

Look out if you're on a pension of any type.

So as far as an airline pilot is concerned, how can a typical pilot possibly save enough money to last them a lifetime by age 60 when the wages are so low that there is nothing left to put away for retirement. Just work the numbers, pilots need to work to age 65 to even have a chance of retiring.

B plans were negotiated into existence based on the fact airline pilots quit working somewhat early at age 60. That is where they came from, and although that's about all anyone has left, look for legacy carriers [UAL] to cite the age change and seek to diminish the plans. Sound scary? You bet! Don't put anything past them.

I'm listening to you and B757driver ask the question: "how are we supposed to make this work?" Well, I think the answer is clear, we need to make about 400K/yr doing this job! If we're all supposed to get our pensions routinely horked and our CBAs rolled back to zero every 5 years then we're nothing more than itinerant workers! We need to be paid huge so we can sustain ourselves through tough times.

We do not need to work longer. We need a national contract for all of us, to serve as a baseline. A five year deal that cannot be abbrogated. And a bond-like financial device that puts lost monies back into the pockets of pilots like yourself who've been screwed. (and I do not mean a little, we could nearly get you all of it, it's not that hard) It's do-able. If the age change contingent had put half the effort into that, instead of trying to work longer, this sort of thing might be a reality.

Shoot, if we put half the effort that went into this thread, into that, we'd be close! (maybe) This is ridiculous! We're all fighting with each other and meanwhile UAL has 4 billion, AA has 7, CAL has 3.5. This is more money than they've ever had and here we are: squabbling.

 

[Klako]

The age 60 restriction in FAR Part 121.383(c) would treat me unfairly after I reach the age of 60. I am an experienced professional airline pilot but I have no other viable skills. The age 60 restriction in FAR Part 121.383(c) would deprive me my liberty and deny me equal protection of the law guaranteed to me under the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution. The age 60 restriction in FAR Part 121.383(c) abridges my privileges by denying me my liberty and ability to earn a living in my chosen profession. This violation of my civil liberty would likely cause me to suffer undo harm and severe financial hardship. At the very least, I need to pilot aircraft in FAR Part 121 operations to the age of 65 when I am eligible for Medicare and the Social Security.
I have been found to be qualified, proficient and medically fit by the FAA to perform pilot duties under in FAR Part 121. This is evidence by my Airline Transport Certificate and my current FAA Class One Medical Certificate. There is every reason to believe that I will continue to be found proficient and fit to perform the pilot duties required by FAR Part 121 after my 60th birthday. There is no credible information available that supports the notion that all FAR Part 121 pilots over age 60 pose more of a safety risk than younger pilots.

Most of the world is moving to a retirement age of 65 for airline pilots. Japan and the Netherlands, to name but two, have done extensive studies which showed raising an airline pilot’s age is not a risk. Countries such as Japan, Australia, those of the Joint Aviation Authority in Europe...all have raised their pilots’ retirement age. Some 45 nations now allow their airline pilots to fly past the age of 60. Some of these pilots do so in United States airspace. The International Civil Aviation Organization, ICAO, Secretariat has now recommended a new upper age limit, with restriction to multi-crew, of 65 years. This recommendation is based on extensive studies, global experience (data compiled from 63 States) with older pilots, totaling 25,500 pilot-years, and the expressed wish of 93 States. The International Civil Aviation Organization—ICAO, now recognizes the harm done by the age 60 rule standard and will amend the international standard to age 65, which should become applicable on 23 November 2006.

A person’s age has never been proven to be the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of a FAR Part 121 pilot. There is no evidence that proves that physical and mental decline can be measured by age alone. We have all observed that some people decline in their physical and mental abilities faster than others. There is the experience factor to be considered also. Since the Wright Brothers, the aviation industry has observed that the more experienced pilot is likely to be the safer pilot. Pilots may suffer some varying amounts of decline in physical and cognitive abilities as they age, however, their level of experience could compensate for any physical decline in performance.

If the United States Federal Government is to continue the age restriction in FAR Part 121-383, given that a pilot is otherwise qualified to practice in their profession, then that government must prove that there are enough reasons to deny pilots the full enjoyment of their profession. If pilots are denied piloting an aircraft for no reason other than because of age, then it is the Federal Government’s burden to first prove that all pilots suffer an unacceptable decline in my ability to fly beyond age 60 which poses an unacceptable safety risk to the flying public. The proof that age alone determines when a FAR Part 121 pilot must not operate aircraft in FAR Part 121 operations is something that Congress has directed the FAA to come up with but the FAA has failed to produce such proof. That proof simply dose not exist.

The age 60 restriction in FAR Part 121.383(c) should be extended or abolished until/unless it is proven that all Far Part 121 pilots suffer an unacceptable decline in ability to fly beyond age 60 which poses an unacceptable safety risk to the flying public,

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Klako: This is the greatest post ever on age 60. Very well said.

 

[§kyye Candy]

The bottom line

This is ridiculous! We're all fighting with each other and meanwhile UAL has 4 billion, AA has 7, CAL has 3.5. This is more money than they've ever had and here we are: squabbling.

Well stated, Flopgut. BRAVO!

And Klako... change your answering machine! You're wasting space.

 

[§kyye Candy]

P.s.

I have been found to be qualified, proficient and medically fit by the FAA...

Klako, if you were comparable to a younger mentality, then all of us younger chicks would be dating guys like YOU instead of guys like my YOUNGER , more "qualified, fit & proficient" man!

Actually, I take that back... I only date men who are financially responsible and have a viable plan for the future that they are capable of implementing.

 

[jbDC9]

Klako: This is the greatest post ever on age 60. Very well said.

What, is that the first time you've seen that? He's posted pretty much that exact same message maybe a dozen times now. We get it. Yawn...

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Drunks, Diabetics, Deaf, and Obese take notice

The previous posts state medical standards will not change. But even if they are right, which I find unlikely, the current standards are enough to disqualify all those currently passing with waivers.

Thousands of CLASS I medicals are being issued with waivers. If the age limit increases say goodbye to the FAA medical waiver system. The elimination of the waiver system alone will exceed the retirement forcast numbers of age 60.


Go ahead and fight to cut your own careers short. Since when has politics ever produced anything other than a bad compromise.


Do you meet all these standards today? For those on waivers watch out.
​

FAA Medical Standards, Protocols and Forms​

Synopsis of Medical Standards, AME Guide - Revised April 3, 2006​

Certificate Class
DPilot TDISTANT VISION 20/20 or better in each eye separately, with or without correction. 20/40 or better in each eye separately, with or without correction. NEAR VISION 20/40 or better in each eye separately (Snellen equivalent), with or without correction, as measured at 16 inches. INTERMEDIATEVISION 20/40 or better in each eye separately (Snellen equivalent), with or without correction at age 50 and over, as measured at 32 inches. No requirement. COLOR VISION Ability to perceive those colors necessary for safe performance of airmen duties.

HEARING Demonstrate hearing of an average conversational voice in a quiet room, using both ears at 6 feet, with the back turned to the examiner OR pass one of the audiometric tests below or: PULSE Not disqualifying per se. Used to determine cardiac system status and responsiveness. BLOOD PRESSURE No specified values stated in the standards. Current guideline maximum is 155/95.
​

Audiometric speech discrimination test: (Score at least 70% discrimination in one ear) or:​

Pure tone audiometric test: Unaided, with thresholds no worse than:
500Hz 1,000Hz 2,000Hz 3,000Hz
Better Ear 35Db 30Db 30Db 40Db
Worst Ear 35Db 50Db 50Db 60Db​

EAR, NOSE, THROAT No ear disease or condition manifested by, or that may reasonably be expected to be manifested by, vertigo or a disturbance of speech or equilibrium.ELECTRO-CARDIOGRAM At age 35 & annually after age 40. Not routinely required.

MENTAL No diagnosis of psychosis, or bipolar disorder, or severe personality disorders.

SUBSTANCE DEPENDENCE & SUBSTANCE ABUSE A diagnosis or medical history of substance dependence is disqualifying unless there is established clinical evidence, satisfactory to the Federal Air Surgeon, of recovery, including sustained total abstinence from the substance(s) for not less than the preceding 2 years. A history of substance abuse within the preceding 2 years is disqualifying. Substance includes alcohol and other drugs (i.e., PCP, sedatives and hynoptics, anxiolytics, marijuana, cocaine, opioids, amphetamines, hallucinogens, and other psychoactive drugs or chemicals). DISQUALIFYING

CONDITIONS
Unless otherwise directed by the FAA, the Examiner must deny or defer if the applicant has a history of: (1) Diabetes mellitus requiring hypoglycemic medication; (2) Angina pectoris; (3) Coronary heart disease that has been treated or, if untreated, that has been symptomatic or clinically significant; (4) Myocardial infarction; (5) Cardiac valve replacement; (6) Permanent cardiac pacemaker; (7) Heart replacement; (8) Psychosis; (9) Bipolar disorder; (10) Personality disorder that is severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts; (11) Substance dependence; (12) Substance abuse; (13) Epilepsy; (14) Disturbance of consciousness and without satisfactory explanation of cause, and (15) Transient loss of control of nervous system function(s) without satisfactory explanation of cause.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

30,000 total waivers issued

Look at the statistics of just 1st class medicals issued on waivers at:​

http://www.leftseat.com/sistats.htm

​

30,000 total waivers alone show a flawed system that needs reform. And if that reform comes after an age extension, expect tighter standards as Senator (R-OK) has said he wants.

Then I want to read everyones arguments how medical standards are not about safety.

Quit while your ahead and come to your senses before you let the politicians destroy your careers.
​

​

FAA Medical Certification | Statistics

During a typical year the FAA processes over 400,000 pathological records and considers almost 30,000 Special Issuance waivers. Over 80% of the denied pilots did not provide sufficient documentation.

Below you will find a partial list of conditions being certified by the FAA. The number of airman with each condition are broken down by certificate class.

Referencing the red text above, even if you do provide proper documentation 20% of 30,000 is stil 6.000 pilots who are not currently getting waivers issued prior to any medical standard reform. And a large percentage of the total stats are FIRST CLASS MEDICALS.



​

 

[Klako]

Interestingly, the FAA grants exemptions for pilots who have had head injuries, seizures, alcohol and drug dependency, heart attacks and bypass surgery. All of these can be and are forgiven after cognitive testing but NEVER has there been an exemption for the simple fact of being one day older than 59, that magic age of 60 that somehow means a seasoned pilot no is longer fit to perform in a lifelong skill. The FAA's official position is that, in spite of numerous scientific studies, it has insufficient evidence to prove that an airline pilot would be as safe or safer if allowed to fly beyond age 60 and therefore all airline pilots must be grounded on their 60th birthday. What a pitiful distortion of logic that the FAA uses to deprive otherwise qualified persons their right to perform in their lifelong career.

 

[Apache06]

Age 60 change

yes to changing the rule to 65

 

[sandman2122]

no to changing the rule to 65.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Head Injuries waivers will be another variable eliminated with the increased risk

Interestingly, the FAA grants exemptions for pilots who have had head injuries, seizures, alcohol and drug dependency, heart attacks ........NEVER has there been an exemption for the simple fact of being one day older than 59.........What a pitiful distortion of logic that the FAA uses to deprive otherwise qualified persons their right to perform in their lifelong career.

Klako, your right. Waivers for head injuries are not logical to allow. I am sure those waivers along with all the other types will be eliminated with the increased risks of over 60 year old pilots being allowed to fly.

Medical standards, the issuance of waivers, and the entire system will change with an age 60 change.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The vote is in: It's age 65 for ALPA at US Airways

MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE
October 6, 2006​

This is Arnie Gentile with a US Airways MEC update for Friday, October 6th, with one new item.
The US Airways pilots’ survey on the Age 60 poll was completed today. The results to the polling question, "Do you favor changing the Age 60 Rule?" are as follows:
With 64 percent of the eligible 2,352 pilots participating in the vote:
756 pilots or 50.03 percent voted yes.
755 pilots or 49.97 percent voted no. A one vote difference!
Fellow Pilots, if you do not think that your participation makes a difference, here’s proof.
Please remember we still have 1,594 pilots on furlough with 178 pilots working at Jets for Jobs carriers. We will update these numbers.
Fly safe and thank you for listening.

 

[fr8doggie]

MEC CODE-A-PHONE UPDATE​

October 6, 2006​

​

Please remember we still have 1,594 pilots on furlough

I wonder how those 1,594 furloughed pilots would vote?

 

[Deadbug]

US Airways too? not so fast...

Yeah, the so-called vote was a 1-vote margin:

With 64 percent of the eligible voting:
756 pilots voted yes.
755 pilots voted no. A one vote difference

No mandate there...