Age 60 Back Again!!!!

[Spooky 1]

Come on Dan. I respect that you have attained the role of Captain at your company, but don't think we(young folks--I am 40) can do your job too. If you did not prepare yourself financially in case of major problems (airline problems always run in cycles) or had a divorce or two, that isn't our fault. This will be a good lesson for all of us----make sure you prepare for the future. I don't want to remain in the right seat or a smaller plane in the left seat any longer than I have to. And, above all, it is safer to have pilots retire at 60. No doubt about that.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, can you please direct me to the source of the idea that it is safer to have pilots retire at 60. I guess with your way of thinking, there must be some optimum age at wich pilots are at there peak? I bet in your mind at least it's somewhere around 40? I will agree that pilots do deteriorate at some point, its just not at some mythical age like 60.

Also, why do you think everyone has been divorced a couple of times, or has purchased to many toys in their lives? I mean what gives you the idea that you are the authority on this issue? Talk about Big Brother looking over ones shoulder. There are a host of reasons why working beyond age 60 could be important to some. Money alone is only one of them. Hope you are healthy, wealthy and wise in your senior years, kicking back with that rich wife you married and laughing all the way to the country club! All the best to you Delta guys.

 

[General Lee]

Gee I keep posting at the same time.
I'll give you this General, I fly between Hawaii and the mainland. If I was back flying up and down the eastern seaboard like I use to I might be changing my tune! My reasoning is that we all will probably need more than we realize. My Dad is 86 and retired from UAL and still going strong. Had he not invested in Real Estate and just depended on his UAL he would be hurting (and no he didn't lose it like the younger guys, at his age it is seperate from the BK)

If your General Lee moniker is a tip of the hat to the Dukes of Hazard tv show are you aware that John Schnieder's half brother is a Delta Pilot?

I didn't know about that. Yeah, my moniker deals with that show, not the actual General.

It is amazing that pilot groups will be losing a lot of pensions etc, but at the same time we, the remaining pilots, will never get a pension, and others have recently left with one or part of one. I need to make more to make sure I have that $1 million waiting for me, and sitting in the right seat longer or on a smaller plane in the left with the new lower pay rates will not help me. It is a no win situation, and I now really need to get into high gear, and these low pay rates will take years to change, if ever. I wish I could fly between Hawaii and the mainland as a 767 Captain, but it really will take forever if age 60 goes away. And, again, the safety issue really is there. Your dad is the exception. That is good for you and your dad probably.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

Dan and Spooky: I really don't understand the deal with the money. I don't spend a lot of money, but I have all the toys I want. I don't have as much as, for instance, someone who retired from UAL in Jan 01. (He11, if I had that guy's money, I'd just throw my money away!) I think you guys are banking on living a lot longer than you are likely to. Come on Dan, 80 or 90? No way. Airline pilots live to about 70. Especially the ones who live through events like we have had the last 5 years.

***OK, Dan I see your Dad is an 86 yr old retired pilot...I am mistaken. You need to start smoking and drinking. I'm kidding. You fly a 76 as captain and have 8 plus years left to work? I don't know what to say...If you can't make it what are we supposed to tell a furloughed 35-38 year old with 2-3 kids?

 

[Spooky 1]

Fair post. I actually can envision this changing in my career. I don't want it to, but I am mentally prepared to get jipped out of a fair career progression. I want to also acknowledge the fact that the only way to do it fair is to, once it has changed, let those people who are still of age come back. Its only right. Now, if and when those pilots come back, they better bring any and all retirement monies they took off with back to the company, with interest. We are going to need that money. I just can't imagine being a captain right now, as bad as things are for everyone, and have the position that I should get more time at the top of this biz. More than anyone else got, more than I deserve. I just want a fair share. Is "fair" too passe a term? No place for "fair" in this biz? Fine. If you want to fly past 60 like in other countries, then maybe we could do some other things like them. How about we go to rostering and equipment assignments? Lets abandon seniority! That might solve a lot of our problems with this issue. We have a very large number of captains where I work who would not make it in that environment. Conversely, we also have a lot of FOs (working and furloughed) who would make great captains, right now. Sound good?

With regard to the third man in the cockpit: My base of friends are all Dallas types. Braniff, Central, Continental and Frontier. What they remember is that the Super 80 was initially certified with three pilots, the 737 with two. The logical thing was that DAL hold the line on the issue since they had the plane that was certified with three pilots. Instead it went to FAL who faltered and their MEC went into ALPA trusteeship, and then went to Wein and they got wasted. Their opinion was that DAL pilots were ALPA primadonnas and wouldn't do any dirty work.

Flopgut. I thought you were a older guy who had been around this industry for awhile. I see from your posts that I was wrong. Lets see...Braniff flew the BAC111 with two pilots without so much as a wimper. CAL flew the DC9 without objection. Frontier under the heavy hand of UAL intimidation flew the B737 with three pilots but squirmed all the way. Central I don't think ever flew any Boeing 737's or DC9's as they merged into ?? I think that the three man jet crew concept was one of the darkest, heavy handed, corupt concepts that ALPA ever foisted on the companies that they worked for, the passengers that they carried, and most importantly, the membership they represented. I was there and this is just my opinion, but I think it has proved a pretty accurate assessment of this little piece of ALPA history. I apologize in advance for hijacking this thread!

Delta took delivery of the first DC9, and somewhere in there assessment they felt that it was not necessary to operate this airplane with three pilots. I guess history would have to say they were right. I believe the ALPA President at that time was a Delta pilot named Al Bonner so God only knows what was going on in the back rooms of Delta/ALPA/and Douglas Aircraft. Wein suffered the ultimate blow when they were driven to strike this issue with their small and fragile airline. Of course it did not take long for the Scabs to show up in Anchorage ready to do the work of the struck pilots. There finally was a settlement, but the company never really recovered from the damage done. Interesting side bar here is that the is that the initial cadre of start up pilots at America West, were Scabs that had gotten typed at Wein. There is a lot more to this airline labor business than meets the eye sometimes.

 

[furloughed dude]

Dan,

Quit thinking about me, me, me.

Age 60 isn't about safety. Yes, skills degrade with age. But now, with pensions and salaries eroding, people that didn't take care of their retirement are wanting to change the rules. Most pilots have taken 30% pay cuts, but others have taken 100% pay cuts (furlough). Luckily I landed a job at another carrier, but I had to start over. Even though I will certainly earn less in my career than pilots 20 years my senior, I still want to retire at 60 This is a job! I plan on enjoying my retirement and do something other than work.

So try thinking about someone other than yourself. I know you want to make another 500k, but if you couldn't save for retirement with the old payscales, why do you think you need 5 more years? You just might have to scale down you plans, but I am sure you will still have a decent retirement. Enjoy your "golden years."

 

[Spooky 1]

Dan,

Quit thinking about me, me, me.

Age 60 isn't about safety. Yes, skills degrade with age. But now, with pensions and salaries eroding, people that didn't take care of their retirement are wanting to change the rules. Most pilots have taken 30% pay cuts, but others have taken 100% pay cuts (furlough). Luckily I landed a job at another carrier, but I had to start over. Even though I will certainly earn less in my career than pilots 20 years my senior, I still want to retire at 60 This is a job! I plan on enjoying my retirement and do something other than work.

So try thinking about someone other than yourself. I know you want to make another 500k, but if you couldn't save for retirement with the old payscales, why do you think you need 5 more years? You just might have to scale down you plans, but I am sure you will still have a decent retirement. Enjoy your "golden years."

Partner, if you are watching out for yourself and letting someone else, like ALPA take care of you, your heading for a big disapointment. that does mean you need to run roughsod over anyone and I am sure that is not Dan's objective based upon his previous posts here. He is trying to point out, and doing very well IMO that what looks like a sure thing at 40 or 45 is usually just a figure of your imangination. Also, the right to work and provide for ones family is a very strong emotion as we can all see from these posts.

Its's really none of my business, but are you actually furloughed after all this time, or are you flying 747's for someone else? If your a Delta furloughee, it would seem just about any job would be better than the one you would come back to at Delta. Am, I missising something here?

 

[Dan Roman]

Good exchange here General and Flopgut. I can't blame you for your perspective. We have all taken hits none of us expected. I see your reasoning, but I still say you would be better off flying 3 extra years.
As far as thinking I would like it changed so I can survive. Not so, I have been saving away from my DB and will be ok. My primary concern (as long it can be proven that safety is NOT comprimised and I don't think it is) is the thousands of pilots who have had their retirement completly destroyed by circumstances totally without their doing. Guys in their fifties who no way could save enough to see them through their retirement. Also, yes the more I can sock away for retirement the better off my family will be.
Personally I would love to find something outside of flying to do part time. But there are a lot of guys who will have to work through no fault of their own.

Flopgut, 60 is young! I watched my Dad and many of his friends and their retirement years seem to be lasting as long as their working years, 25-35 plus years. Maybe he is the exception (golf scores in the 80's while in his 80's), but he retired in 1979 with what seemed like a good income from 32 years with UAL and inflation eat it up. My feelings are the more you can save and the less you owe the better off your retirement will be, and a chance to save/earn an extra half million in three years is way better than working at Wal Mart. My position is coming from the belief that retirement is a long time and we should all be able to enjoy it.

 

[Flopgut]

Spooky: Central was bought by Frontier. I agree, 3rd pilot issue was a bad deal (not unlike this one). However, this age 60 deal could negatively affect a lot more pilots. I don't see the upside for those of us still working as FOs, furloughed, or those recently retired. For those who are captains and are approaching 60, the only thing better would be winning the lottery. And in my opinion, they have all already been pretty lucky. For me, I spend a lot more time making sure my disability and health/life insurance is up to date than my retirement. I don't think I'm going to make it flying to 60. Bad family history, carry a lot of weight, major corrective surgery that still bothers me everyday, etc. All of which I might add is a distant second to the negative toll my body endures as it approaches 12,000 hours of flying time sitting in the right seat with no upgrade in sight! I am so sick of prostrating myself weekly to the deranged ramblings, arrogant musings, and mental judo required to work within the rank of some of these captains. Most of which have precious little right seat time themselves. When you say "there is a lot more to this airline labor business than meets the eye" your talking about some of these types. I can't imagine they could get 5 extra years.

On a not-so-related front: Is that WAL CA Fergusen (I think) still alive? The guy who was going into Sheridan, WY in a 73 and accidentally landed a Buffalo? They used to celebrate the anniversary of that day with a parade and he would come back and be the Grand Marshal. Thats what I heard, am I correct?

 

[Dizel8]

As opposed to pursuing the repeal of age 60, an issue which clearly divides us, I think energy would be better spent changing the tax and retirement law for pilots. Since it is a federally mandated retirement age, why are we being "punished" by the system?

 

[Dan Roman]

Dan,

Quit thinking about me, me, me.

Age 60 isn't about safety. Yes, skills degrade with age. But now, with pensions and salaries eroding, people that didn't take care of their retirement are wanting to change the rules. Most pilots have taken 30% pay cuts, but others have taken 100% pay cuts (furlough). Luckily I landed a job at another carrier, but I had to start over. Even though I will certainly earn less in my career than pilots 20 years my senior, I still want to retire at 60 This is a job! I plan on enjoying my retirement and do something other than work.

So try thinking about someone other than yourself. I know you want to make another 500k, but if you couldn't save for retirement with the old payscales, why do you think you need 5 more years? You just might have to scale down you plans, but I am sure you will still have a decent retirement. Enjoy your "golden years."

I'll give you this, I agree that the ideal situation is finding something else to do, I'm trying to figure out another line of work when I grow up(60) that is seperate from the airline industry. I've enjoyed my career immensely but would love to do something else. As far as my position being about me me me I'm more thinking about friends in their late 50's who had their retirement ripped out from under them and don't have time to make it up under any circumstances. You were furloughed through no fault of your own and equally as unfairly, the difference is you've got 20 years to recover, try being 59 and losing your retirement, they don't have 20 years to recover from what I think we all agree has been the wholesale attack on our profession