AF, Navy Fighter ?

[Huggy Bear]

I'm not sure if by "navy guy" you are referring to me. If you are, when did I ever say anything about being solo. There was plenty of air force there, just not tacair. Lots of tankers, B-52s and AC-130's (I learned of them later). Not a viper or eagle to be seen. Well one, the guy on exchange to my squadron.

Keep in mind I was in afghanistan for only 3 weeks. Maybe more air force assets came later. But from what I hear, the dropping stopped a few weeks after we left.

"Iceman" lol. Me. No matter, we are cut from the same cloth. Every US military pilot, given the opportunity, will rise to the occasion. I certainly didn't do any more than anyone else here would have done. I was simply fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

I simply offer my experiences as a counterpoint to the constant air force mantra of "we are tactically better than the navy because of all their boat stuff". What use is all the training when if you never make it to the game.

Maybe our floating airbases have some use afterall.

 

[Spidey]

I would rather be an "under-trained" Navy guy actually in the fight than an Air Force guy sitting it out. We were dropping left and right in the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq with ne'er an land based tactical jet to be seen.

...well, blue four, thanks for bein there...even if ya missed your targets...

 

[BiffF15]

I'm not sure if by "navy guy" you are referring to me. If you are, when did I ever say anything about being solo. There was plenty of air force there, just not tacair. Lots of tankers, B-52s and AC-130's (I learned of them later). Not a viper or eagle to be seen. Well one, the guy on exchange to my squadron.

Keep in mind I was in afghanistan for only 3 weeks. Maybe more air force assets came later. But from what I hear, the dropping stopped a few weeks after we left.

"Iceman" lol. Me. No matter, we are cut from the same cloth. Every US military pilot, given the opportunity, will rise to the occasion. I certainly didn't do any more than anyone else here would have done. I was simply fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

I simply offer my experiences as a counterpoint to the constant air force mantra of "we are tactically better than the navy because of all their boat stuff". What use is all the training when if you never make it to the game.

Maybe our floating airbases have some use afterall.

Huggy Bear,
Your self flagellation is truely appreciated by all the non-military visitors.
Let me help you out with a couple of things however.
First, was it three whole weeks or just part of three in theater? Remind me what type of air threat the Afghan Air Force is? I only have 15+ months "over there" observing all branches plus some of our "friends". Plus, if that was your big day in the show don't be so quick to judge what you haven't seen.
Second, how many large force exercises or events (more than just your squadron) have you participated in (I will define large as more than 30 fighters and not tanker fighters) all on the same side (not including adversaries).
Third, I have trained with every squadron that has passed through or been stationed at Beaufort over the last 11 years and without fail everyone that came back from the boat was way not ready to do anything other than kill non-moving targets. I have deployed to Key West / Sloppy Joe's more times than I can remember, fought every version of the mighty Tomcat and Hornet. I have fought some great dudes and without fail those that were spinning up for, were on, or have just left the boat were not proficient and it showed.
Don't let a bruised ego over ride logic.

 

[coho92]

Huggy - bro you have one heck of an ego but hey I expect that of a "hornet driver" (attribute to a classmate o' mine) I hope that you're an 0-3 (any higher and I'll assume you have absolutly ZERO joint time) and have no idea how DOD really works, also just wondering if you're a ring knocker 'cause you have the air of being a bit of a tool. On the bright side yes the navy did it all! As always AF was just a support role role providing the fuel and a couple of big guys with firepower equal to your entire CBG. with the 73 type you rushing swa, if so good luck.

 

[Huggy Bear]

"I simply offer my experiences as a counterpoint to the constant air force mantra of "we are tactically better than the navy because of all their boat stuff". What use is all the training when if you never make it to the game."

"I have deployed to Key West / Sloppy Joe's more times than I can remember, fought every version of the mighty Tomcat and Hornet. I have fought some great dudes and without fail those that were spinning up for, were on, or have just left the boat wereI have fought some great dudes and without fail those that were spinning up for, were on, or have just left the boat were not proficient and it showed. and it showed."

Exactly my point. I'm talking about who was there at the start of the invasion. You're talking about training and staff tours. In afghanistan 3/4 of the ordnance was dropped by air force big wing bombers. The remaining 1/4 was dropped by navy tacair.

"Huggy - bro you have one heck of an ego but hey I expect that of a "hornet driver" (attribute to a classmate o' mine) I hope that you're an 0-3 (any higher and I'll assume you have absolutly ZERO joint time) and have no idea how DOD really works, also just wondering if you're a ring knocker 'cause you have the air of being a bit of a tool. On the bright side yes the navy did it all! As always AF was just a support role role providing the fuel and a couple of big guys with firepower equal to your entire CBG. with the 73 type you rushing swa, if so good luck."

A typical flight info class act you are. Attack the poster instead of his ideas.

 

[BiffF15]

"I simply offer my experiences as a counterpoint to the constant air force mantra of "we are tactically better than the navy because of all their boat stuff". What use is all the training when if you never make it to the game."

"I have deployed to Key West / Sloppy Joe's more times than I can remember, fought every version of the mighty Tomcat and Hornet. I have fought some great dudes and without fail those that were spinning up for, were on, or have just left the boat wereI have fought some great dudes and without fail those that were spinning up for, were on, or have just left the boat were not proficient and it showed. and it showed."

Exactly my point. I'm talking about who was there at the start of the invasion. You're talking about training and staff tours. In afghanistan 3/4 of the ordnance was dropped by air force big wing bombers. The remaining 1/4 was dropped by navy tacair.

"Huggy - bro you have one heck of an ego but hey I expect that of a "hornet driver" (attribute to a classmate o' mine) I hope that you're an 0-3 (any higher and I'll assume you have absolutly ZERO joint time) and have no idea how DOD really works, also just wondering if you're a ring knocker 'cause you have the air of being a bit of a tool. On the bright side yes the navy did it all! As always AF was just a support role role providing the fuel and a couple of big guys with firepower equal to your entire CBG. with the 73 type you rushing swa, if so good luck."

A typical flight info class act you are. Attack the poster instead of his ideas.

HuggyBear,
Well, let me ask you a couple of questions. Who do you think is better at a particular mission, the guy who does it all the time, or the guy who does it for a couple of weeks every couple of months (SEAD, Interdiction, CAS, DCA, OCA, etc)?
What was going on in the world that the USAF TAC AIR wasn't in Afghanistan?
Biff

 

[Bjammin]

HuggyBear,
Well, let me ask you a couple of questions. Who do you think is better at a particular mission, the guy who does it all the time, or the guy who does it for a couple of weeks every couple of months (SEAD, Interdiction, CAS, DCA, OCA, etc)?
What was going on in the world that the USAF TAC AIR wasn't in Afghanistan?
Biff

What are you talking about dude?

I played in GW1 and was in PSAB and Incirlic for alot longer then any AF guy I know, 3+ tours, and not the 3 month kind.

I have done 9 Red Flags, 3 Green flags, and 3 Navy "Big" X's and was a SEAD commander for numorous missions. We played with the AF all the time and they sucked or were as good as any Navy Fighter squadron.

The only thing I saw that was different was the philosophy of flying, as mentioned earlier.

You want to play hard ball?

BRING IT ON!!!!

 

[Bjammin]

Training for the boat takes about 3 weeks out of your life in the training command, 2 weeks in the RAG and maybe 3 weeks every year out of your fleet squadron.

That is not enough to cause any loss of preformance in the TAC arena overall.

Sure coming right back from the boat guys might be rusty, 2 fights and your back in the game. I would say the flexibility and overall skill gained at the boat cancels out any negitive effects.

Let's hang this up guys,shake hands and go to our seperate corners.

Put the macho ego's aside and realize WE ARE ON THE SAME TEAM!

It's great to be proud of your particalluar service, but don't trash others to try make you feel more significant. Carriers nor heavy bombers are going anywhere anytime soon and when they do i'm sure your give a s-- index will be way low.

 

[Hobit]

"Put the macho ego's aside and realize WE ARE ON THE SAME TEAM!"

BJammin,

I have no part of the little hair pulling going on here but what you wrote struck a chord and is the exact realization I came to when I deployed as an Apache pilot. After spending time with blackhawks and chinooks in what you folks call the 'threat bubble' on a non-linear, non-contiguous battle field you tend to realize the synergistic effects of your (plural) abilities. Sure we all got to the fight with prejudices but that all was replaced in about one mission together. All was not peaches but we quickly became to respect the he!! out of each other. At the end of the 'vacation' most were really sad to see a good team of misfits broken apart.

Now when I hear a Kiowa Warrior (OH-58D) or Apache pilot bag on Blackhawks or vice versa I realize I am hearing some one talk that has no hard data to justify his/her ignorance.

 

[BiffF15]

What are you talking about dude?

I played in GW1 and was in PSAB and Incirlic for alot longer then any AF guy I know, 3+ tours, and not the 3 month kind.

I have done 9 Red Flags, 3 Green flags, and 3 Navy "Big" X's and was a SEAD commander for numorous missions. We played with the AF all the time and they sucked or were as good as any Navy Fighter squadron.

The only thing I saw that was different was the philosophy of flying, as mentioned earlier.

You want to play hard ball?

BRING IT ON!!!!

Bjam,
You are hilarious. Come out swinging without looking back at what started this little foray, then you cloak yourself in a white sheet and make like a peace negotiator.
Whatever.
Re-read the trash Huggybear likes to sling and you will understand. Or maybe you did and that is why the change...
However, you added nothing that I could tell. Yes, you have done quite a few large exercises, but correct me if I'm wrong but didn't I direct that question to Huggybear to establish his credentials? Next, why was the USN the only TAC AIR show there during the time frame HB was there? I just asked a couple of questions and you roll in to protect either your branch or HB (not sure which ? my point being directed HB ONLY).
Also, if a plane does more than one mission it's a compromise in performance and or capability. And if a dude or dudette does more than one mission do you think they are as good as their counter parts who do only one of the missions? I think not. How about if they do CAS, interdiction, DCA, OCA, SEAD and Sniper / Lantern.
Wow, they are probably better than the one or two mission planes / crews.
Okay, NOT.
Next time you roll in add something to the fight, a reason, defense, excuse or a different point vice being a high speed cheerleader (passes through in a blur but contributes nothing).
Biff on 243.0 out.

 

[Bjammin]

Without changing my plea that we just kick back and have a few, I will say that I was directing my statements at your generalities about the services.

I think if we keep the bashing out of it (that contributes nothing) we can have a decent, friendly discussion about some of these topics.

Huggy Bear can take care of himself, plus I have no dog in the Afgan arugment.

As far as multi-mission, sometimes I think diversity can make you an overall better aviator. You can be great at motor sports and still be a top notch snow skier, and maybe at the same time be good at making furnature. Same with doing multi-mission flying. No missions are so complex that you have to only train to one.

I teach about 9 different phases of tac-air and feel I have a good grasp on all of them, all while flying for the airlines. If i'm out of a phase for a while I will take the extra time and study up so i'm doing the best job for the students. You need to make a effort and not be lazy when doing this kind of diverse flying and I think this is where guys fail. They would rather be in the club throwing down some j-weed or grog then studying up for a mission they haven't done in a while, relying on their ego to get them through.

 

[Scrapdog]

That is not enough to cause any loss of preformance in the TAC arena overall.

Sure coming right back from the boat guys might be rusty, 2 fights and your back in the game.

1. There isn't a loss of performance in the TAC arena overall because they never had any performance in that arena in the first place.

2. Two fights of what? The standard Navy 1 v 1 intx? Or wait - maybe the push it up 2 v 2... GMAFB!

Bj (or B J, whichever the case may be), you crack me up dude. You can sling feces with the best of 'em but when the zingers come right back...it's funny how quick you bring out the white flag. Reap what you sow my friend.

You and huggybear hang out at the bar much together??

 

[Bjammin]

1. There isn't a loss of performance in the TAC arena overall because they never had any performance in that arena in the first place.

2. Two fights of what? The standard Navy 1 v 1 intx? Or wait - maybe the push it up 2 v 2... GMAFB!

Bj (or B J, whichever the case may be), you crack me up dude. You can sling feces with the best of 'em but when the zingers come right back...it's funny how quick you bring out the white flag. Reap what you sow my friend.

You and huggybear hang out at the bar much together??

What are you talking about?

Having done both Navy Fallons and Red Flags they are both amazingly the same. Plus I've seen many X's with the ANG and of course Cope Thunder (never did that one, but my squadron did). All large force X's with the same goal.

Again, I have respect for all military aviatiors, being from a joint squadron and all. If you don't how can we work together to learn from each other? Are you the type that plays "I have a secret" in planning for a multi service excersize? That kind of crap only leads to loss of training and more in-fighting.

The services have differences, GREAT!! Let's learn the things that work for each and better our ultimate mission of TAKING IT TO THE ENEMY!!

Sure, sometimes I have a few too many beers before posting and come out swinging, this is NOT one of those times.

 

[rhinodriver]

Bj (or B J, whichever the case may be)

Scrapdog... You're a frickin' tool.

J.A.

You must be hoot on the flight deck....

 

[JimNtexas]

1. There isn't a loss of performance in the TAC arena overall because they never had any performance in that arena in the first place.

...

I've been somewhat skeptical of the F-22 for a long time.

This post doubles my worst fears about it.