Additional UAL Pilot Furloughs today

[Boeingman]

FDJ:

I thought you said you enjoyed doing this. Now it's getting tiring?

Yes I charaterized your B scale operation after you mentioned it. But I was first pointing out the hypocrisy of the initial post you made about UAL fighting the B scale. You sounded like you were in awe of them. Sounded kind of dumb to me coming from a pilot representing a group that voted in a B scale after all the years ALPA was fighting against it.


You call that an insult? Grow some thicker skin. If it is insulting to you it is either a character flaw or a contractual flaw. You pick. How is that for cause and effect?


Your EAL association was forwarded on your post on 1/29 @2047 in the end. It was a "BTW" type comment when I only asked
in essence (since I know you split hairs) what your association to the CAL strike was. Close, but your attempts to be one in the same do not wash with me.

Never said they (UAL) walked on water but your inferences come across that way. They did what everybody is trying to do to achieve the best results for themselves. Good for them, but I am not in awe like you seem to be. Snide remark? Nope, it was THEIR remark just passed back .. Again your beef with this statement should be with the authors not the messenger i.e. UAL MEC.

History of harming ALPA with CAL? I am the last person you need to remind of that. To dredge up the scab issue becasue of your hurt feelings about THEIR comment (UAL) about another ALPA group is pretty lame. Your cause and effect theory is kinda idiotic when it was UAL MEC's own snide remarks about a once proud pilot group. One comment that effected directly on my family and enlightened me to the arrogance on property there at the time.


The problem you don't acknowledge reference the RJ is the alienation of many commuter guys with ALPA. You don't care to hear about my concerns about why people cross picket lines.
You only have a one track mind to ostracize. Good for you. I know this is a major issue for your emotional well being. I'm personally far beyond it. Again, don't be our martyrs.

Having seen first hand the masses of ex ALPA pilots that decimated our strike I see the same formula brewing again. Go ahead stick you head in the sand and not talk to people. This is a beatiful example of your cause and effect.


I agree, the history of this thread exposes your narrow minded views and sheds light on the serious problems that exist with the CAL group getting support for all of our pilots to get what we deserve.

The crash and burn comment was a wake up call. Take it or leave it. (Cause) You sound like some people I have known over the years.......(Effect) some that are no longer with us.

You guys already have the best over there. I made a comment that in my opinion your pay scales won't last. Am I not allowed to have an opinion? I really don't concern myself about DAL, UAL NWA right at this time. Just CAL.

I do hope you guys are able to fly your contract to it's term and I have said on more than one occasion that I pray you (or anyone)never go through what we did at CAL (remember being tested)?

That being said, I think this industry is in for some major changes and these contracts you enjoy are going to be a thing of the past. God knows what turmoil it will bring but I see a big stoem on the horizon. That is why I am ready for plan B for flying.

Funny, I feel like it is 1980 all over again with Frank and NYA, just different circumsatnces causing the turmoil.

 

[Boeingman]

True - it is smoldering dynomite - particularly if an airline gets desperate and tries a Lorenzo style bankruptcy reorganization. The wall ALPA has built through the middle of the union is very dangerous. (Scary thought - would Delta have less of a cash burn if the mainline jets were parked? I think we know what the answer is at US Air)

The Delta MEC may be in a unique position to perform a heroic act to restore the union by integrating the Connection guys. Having all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots on a 12,000 strong list - wow.

In recent history the United MEC and their pilots have been very supportive of the Connection pilot group - we appreciate it.

This is exactly what I am trying to get through FDJ's head about preventing a problem before it happens. You have to undersatnd the fundamental reasons why people scab. Ugly but true. I don't care what anyone says you NEVER know who will walk the line until the actual nut cutting happens.

We had guys cross that were the loudest and proactive ALPA guys and we had guys go full term that I never would of imagined had the balls.

When I look at the number of ex ALPA people that crossed as new hires, it makes me wonder....Are we making the same mistakes today?

I asked for info about that RJDC cause my head as a mainline guy is in the sand as well. I do see a real problem brewing and a rift with the representation. It will come back to bite us all in the ass.

I am afraid it is about to explode at CAL with the CALEX and CAL issues. I'm with you, all one list. The RJ today is nothing more than the DC-9-10's and 737-100's of the 60's.

We are all about to be checkmated by management.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Once again you missed the point.

When I said that this is getting tiring, I meant going over the same points over and over again was tiring.

I never once said that we should not address the problems ALPA is facing. In fact, I have been discussing that long before this thread. I agree that we need to address the problems we as a union are facing.

However, that does not mean I will ever forgive the scabs.

The two are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think. I can do both. I think addressing the current problems we have, at the same time ostracizing the scabs, serve the same purpose...Preventing more people from crossing future picket lines.

I will try to say it more clearly. I cannot ignore what scabs have done. That does not mean I must ignore current problems.


Hopefully this will clear it up.

 

[Boeingman]

Once again you missed the point.

When I said that this is getting tiring, I meant going over the same points over and over again was tiring.

I never once said that we should not address the problems ALPA is facing. In fact, I have been discussing that long before this thread. I agree that we need to address the problems we as a union are facing.

However, that does not mean I will ever forgive the scabs.

The two are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think. I can do both. I think addressing the current problems we have, at the same time ostracizing the scabs, serve the same purpose...Preventing more people from crossing future picket lines.

I will try to say it more clearly. I cannot ignore what scabs have done. That does not mean I must ignore current problems.


Hopefully this will clear it up.

What is tiring for you is (and the impression I get), I will not be brow beaten into your ideal or agendas.

The problems that we as a union are facing has the potential to create an army of scabs. You just don't think it can happen.

You do not want to acknowledge the fact the ALPA policies and past hose jobs have played a part in the scab issue. Your choice is to ostrasize and condemn. The scab you hassle today, or RJ guy you hose tom., or former ALPA member double crossed, will be the guy laughing at you as he crosses your line.

The ostrasizing in my opinion does nothing but give those so inclined the itch to just do it again. When you start hassleing MY pilots, it is an issue with me because it will effect the unity we need to attain our goals. One of the common themes by many who crossed was the absolute hatred of ALPA. The harrassment and or policies just further fosters this pure disdain.

Are you really that foolish to belive that your ostrasizing , as a whole wil be effective. No way. If you think this is an effective weapon you are kidding yourself. Sure you'll push around some weaker folks, but from my viewpoint on this issue it creates more determination to hose guys just like you and I. The ALPA member.


You've made your point time and time again about forgiving scabs. Time and time again I have said to you, fine by me. Your choice. I just think for a guy who was 11 during our strike it is not in your place to be the martyr for the CAL striking pilots.

For every pilot out there that follows ALPA like a religon, there are those just as anti ALPA.

I'm not talking about inviting these guys home to dinner or swapping your wife with them for christ sakes.

Is that clear enough?

 

[~~~^~~~]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Also consider that ALPA has divided pilot groups on the same property - meaning that the potential scab has several motivations in addition to the money. On the Delta property there are pilots on both sides of the fence that feel they have a score to settle. While we are divided each new contract makes one group winners and the other losers. The division and animosity grows.

While fostering these divisions and animosity - ALPA forgave the Continental scabs without back dues - this sent many pilots the message that ALPA doesn't consider scabbing to be any big deal - at least it can be forgiven.

Then you add to this volitile mix deliberate exclusion of the Connection pilots in negotiations over their pay and working conditions - which lead members of our MEC to talk about a decertification effort and an ALPA card burning party on ramp 3.

It is a dangerous situation. ALPA needs to fight for integration like their life depends on it because - their life just may depend on it. It may be painful, but ALPA must pull together.

 

[Boeingman]

This thread has taken an interesting direction.

Also consider that ALPA has divided pilot groups on the same property - meaning that the potential scab has several motivations in addition to the money. On the Delta property there are pilots on both sides of the fence that feel they have a score to settle. While we are divided each new contract makes one group winners and the other losers. The division and animosity grows.

While fostering these divisions and animosity - ALPA forgave the Continental scabs without back dues - this sent many pilots the message that ALPA doesn't consider scabbing to be any big deal - at least it can be forgiven.

Then you add to this volitile mix deliberate exclusion of the Connection pilots which has even lead members of our MEC to talk about a decertification effort and an ALPA card burning party on ramp 3.

It is a dangerous situation. ALPA needs to fight for integration like their life depends on it because - their life just may depend on it.

Bingo.

I am glad to see that some of our regional brothers see the big picture here about the growing discontent and the ramifications it may cause.

But don't worry.....FDJ will try and scare and ostrasize anyone not to cross his picket line.

 

[TurboS7]

Since it has been revealed that DFJ has a striking EAL viewpoint but from a teenage perspective. When I was a teenager I heard rumors that the outfit my Dad worked for had CIA operative conncections. The people in charge said no way and I believed them and continued too. It wasn't until I was given the honest truth and shown the facts that I realized that I had been had-that was 20 years later. You can yell and scream all you want with a picket sign but no way are you going to stop a bunch of eagar RJ driver's from the left seat of a 777. You can call them all kinds of names and kick them out of the brotherhood, but when there are more of them than there are of you, what are you going to do. It is hard to deny a jumpseat when you are just walking the pavement. I agree with you Mr. Boeingman the worse thing that the EAL pilot's did was leave their seats. And the worse thing that the IAM guys ever did was listen to Charlie. If they would have had cool heads and gone with the status quo they could've been part of the largest airline in the world. American still would be sputtering out of DFW. The CAL senority list would have survived it sure has survived and thrived with all the other B.S. it has had to put up with it. But Eastern guys are Eastern guys and they would rather have nothing then to have another name for their airline. That was about a 3M dollar mistake for the satisfaction. I am sure everyone could use that money now. Get one seniority list or you guys will destroy yourselves and your futures. That includes UAL,DAL,AA.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Boeingman,

You're quite right I will scare and ostracize anyone who crosses a picket line. I think that has proven to be very effective to a lot of people a lot of times.

I will also continue to address the problems facing ALPA today. That is also an effective tool. Nowhere is it written, and never did I say that if you cannot pursue both measures.

For all of your snotty replies, before this thread I have not heard you post a single time of the effects of a two-tier system, the RJDC suit, onelist, etc. I have. I have had meaningful dialogue with many people, on both sides of the fence. We all want what is best for the profession. Often we have different methods to achieve the same goal. But for you to accuse me of being blind to the facts, burying my head in the sand, etc. shows that you are spouting off without knowing the facts. I understand the issues. I have taken the time to learn them. Have you?

I don't know how many times I can say this. Continue to treat the scabs like the scum that they are. At the same time, continue to work towards a better ALPA.

I believe both of those methods are effective, and necessary.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I have had meaningful dialogue with many people, on both sides of the fence. We all want what is best for the profession. Often we have different methods to achieve the same goal. I have taken the time to learn them.

Continue to treat the scabs like the scum that they are. At the same time, continue to work towards a better ALPA.

Thanks, and AMEN!

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,
You're quite right I will scare and ostracize anyone who crosses a picket line. I think that has proven to be very effective to a lot of people a lot of times.

Sure go ahead. It didn't do squat in 1983 and it won't do squat in the next battle either. But this is mentally stimulating for you. I really don't care. I am speaking from a matter of perspective having witnessed it first hand. Let's see you were in the 5th grade at the time?

Scare? LOL boy you took the bait hook line and sinker.
What are you the boogie man as well? Is there no end to your abilities MR FDJ? Do you realize how stupid that sounds to actually believe that?

I was just testing your maturity level from my other post.

I will also continue to address the problems facing ALPA today. That is also an effective tool. Nowhere is it written, and never did I say that if you cannot pursue both measures.

No kidding? Thanks for the update.

For all of your snotty replies, before this thread I have not heard you post a single time of the effects of a two-tier system, the RJDC suit, onelist, etc. I have. I have had meaningful dialogue with many people, on both sides of the fence. We all want what is best for the profession. Often we have different methods to achieve the same goal. But for you to accuse me of being blind to the facts, burying my head in the sand, etc. shows that you are spouting off without knowing the facts. I understand the issues. I have taken the time to learn them. Have you?

Because I just started viewing the boards. That good enough for you?

I'm stil digesting that RJDC suit. If you looked hard enough you'd find I asked "in 50 words or less" for an explanation.

Snotty replies? Your ego must give you a free reign on those. That why it is ok for you? Go re read your original reply to me. I guess you came across to me the same way as you did to the CF guys.

I don't know how many times I can say this. Continue to treat the scabs like the scum that they are. At the same time, continue to work towards a better ALPA.

Well sport that won't work at CAL. Like I said, on of these days your big mouth is going to get you in trouble. You talk a good game, but I can think of a few of those guys you start your attitude with they are going to take you apart.

Still no answer from you on why so many ex ALPA members crossed? You have conviently ignored that.

I believe both of those methods are effective, and necessary.

Your viewpoint of effectiveness compared to mine is a joke.