Add 'pilot' to list of jobs that aren't so great now

[ATRCAPT]

As soon as I read the article, I knew the general would have a comment.
By the way, I'm enjoying my MAF overnight. I don't care where they send me. Just show me the money. 

I agree. London was cool the 50,000 times I flew there. I'll take a Shiner Bock, and a Lubbock overnight any day.

 

[CapnVegetto]

You guys aren't exactly net savvy, are you?

You're all locked in a war of words with a guy with a Dragonball name and avatar who lists World of Warcraft characters under his "Current Position". Everything he says is engineered to be a gross caricature of the pop culture-addled ignorant young regional puke. You respond to anything he says, you've already lost.

To emphasize: This guy is a TROLL. He is a WIND-UP ARTIST. He's not even a subtle one. He BROADCASTS this fact every time he posts. He hangs around to piss off all the people who thought Instructordude and Browntothebone were too subtle. He's just not as funny as they were.

Vegetto: As someone who spent a lot of time dodging Goons and /b/tards back in the day, it should carry some weight when I say that you are one of the most artless trolls I've ever seen. I don't know what's more pathetic: Your JV-level antics, or the predictability of the response you get.

...Actually, scratch that. It's definitely the latter.

Huh? Someone named 'thepotato' is making fun of my screen name? Seriously, 'thepotato'?

'Scuze me while I finish laughing.

Sorry to dissapoint you, I'm not a troll. That always seems to be copout #2 whenever someone can't genuinely argue a point. 'OH he's a troll!! Ignore him!!'

I'm simply a real person who doesn't live in the fantasy world that most of you do. On top of that, I've refuted everything he's said. There was also another argument a few posts ago with a much more realistic and intelligent person on here. Of course, those points are always ignored.

I don't know why I waste my time here, I guess I'm the idiot........

 

[General Lee]

General, a question for you. If this article had featured a DL pilot, who said he or she liked drinking beer in Europe or sitting on the beach in South America as a perk of their job, would you still have made the same statement?

Did Sully Sullenberger give a watered down assesment to Congress? No, no he didn't. He probably had some great layovers before the Hudson Crash, and there were probably some things he could have told Congress about that he enjoyed. But, he DIDN'T. He gave the real story.

I enjoy many parts of my job, but I won't do it for free, and our group getting waxed by a BK judge wasn't fun. When people ask me if I like my job, I usually state "it isn't what it used to be." That needs to be thrown out there in public more, and Sully did it. This guy in the USAToday may be good intentioned, but he just pulled the heartstrings of every Empty Nipple student in DAB willing to do whatever it takes to fly "a big RJ."

That is NOT the right message to get out there. Purple Sunsets and unicorn formations for this JB pilot may be great, but let's be more realistic next time.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

I agree. London was cool the 50,000 times I flew there. I'll take a Shiner Bock, and a Lubbock overnight any day.

It's great to know that there is at least one of you out there that likes LBB better than London......next......??? And you went there 50,000 times? At least we now know that Charles Lindbergh is ALIVE AND WELL, not dead on the isle of Maui....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ableone]

Good day chucklehead.

"When I hear someone bitching and whining about making $200,000 a year while working 10 days a month I want to punch them in the f*cking mouth."

What does that imply? That means there are people like you all over the place making this kind of money that do nothing but whine bitch piss and moan like little babies because they don't know how good they've got it. NOWHERE in this did I EVER say that anyone shouldn't work to better their situation, nor did I badmouth anyone who thinks they might deserve more. Maybe you do. I really don't care. What I am saying, and have been saying all the time is that I can't stand to hear idiots sitting in a comfy left seat with 3000 people below them on a seniority list and a six-figure income do nothing but bitch and whine about how tough their poor little life is. F*ck off. You make me sick.

Wow, you are one angry little girl. If the guy at the top of the pyramid earns $200,000 or less what do you think the lower levels are going to look like?

Unfortunately, because you open every conversation about the flying profession with statements like "It's the easiest job in the world 90% of the time - All I do is play golf and drink - flying makes me feel as happy as a five year old girl in her first dress" etc. You are never going to be an effective negotiator. I am absolutely sure that when you started your former job you were paid what was initially offered. Had you been offered less you would have taken it because you don't seem to have the ability to leverage your pay.

Wow, you are stacking up the wrong s-hit. I made NBAA average for my salary, which is more than fair. Salary was negotiated by me using those tables. I made the initial offer. He took it.

Congratulations, you have just proven conclusively that you have no clue how to negotiate. YOU made the INITIAL OFFER! Of course he took it genius. Was he able to hide his smile?

So you made the NBAA average your starting point. I am not even going to try to explain this one to you.

Really? I am a capt at a major and I don't make 200,000. I also don't know any other major ca's who make that.

I know 3. Play golf with them every week. So 1 of 3 things is true: 1. You consider Jetblue, Airtran, or somebody like that a major, 2. You are really junior, or 3. You work the absolute bare minimum.

Narrowbody lineholding CA at a legacy major. I guess you are unfamiliar with UAL and USAir payrates. You are no better than the flying public who believe ALL airline pilots earn phenomenal salaries.

Oh, you seem to have a problem. (or two)


With respect to your father and your retired friend, do they have pensions and retirement healthcare? You have not specified, you only stated that they knew how to manage their money, which is the same thing as saying they were lucky with their investments. Not much of a strategy.

I'll answer this right off. My father worked for the government, so his was a given.

Why am I not surprised.

They have the TSP, pension, and govt healthcare so he was good to go from day 1 of retirement. Sure, that part was easy, but there was also the 2 paid off houses, 2 paid off cars, 75 acres of land bought as an investment 20 years ago that they get timber money off of that has gone up in value about 20X, Stocks he bought, Bonds, Roth IRA's Simple IRA's, Gold, and Silver. To put it simply, not all his eggs were in one basket. He's not even old enough to draw Social Security yet, and he's been retired for 5 years now. So what happened?

What happened was he worked in a job with 100% job security and a government guaranteed pension. Therefore he could afford to invest all of his discretionary income in as high risk a portfolio as he could stomach as he was a ward of the state. Color me unimpressed with daddy.

Instead of blowing his money on stupid $hit like I see most people doing, he saved for the future. Sure, he blew some of it, we all do. But he was smart, he spread it around, and grew it. Now he's enjoying the fruits of that. Government retirement pension is 60% of what you made in your top 3 salary years of service. So basically if you made $100K a year for 3 years you get $60K. On top of that, if you die first, your wife continues to get it until she dies.

Retirement planning is easy when everbody else is paying to finance your retirement.

Because of my father's smart investments and putting back, his pension is supplemented with everything else on top of that. He'll have 6 figures for the rest of his life every year while never having to work. No mortgage payment, no car payments, or none of that other crap helps too. He's actually getting close to buying a new truck and plans to pay cash for it. Must be nice.

I am sure that it is.

It was not your father's "smart investments" that provided him with security, it was the government's largess. Gaurentee my employment for life and I too will be able to make "smart" investments. One of these days you are going to have to stand on your own and stop citing daddy as your example. How is your retirement plan looking?

Do you know what the definition of a middle class income is? According to Forbes the bottom end is about $87,000 and the top is around $800,000.

Regarding your 5% argument. You will find that your statistics are out of date.


Thanks for the ecomony lesson. So, if I make $86,999 a year what am I, poverty class? Poor? I say once again I've lived a really damn good life when I was growing up on much less than that. Now, inflation is a factor, but still, you must not consider yourself valid middle class unless you have a $800K house, boat, 3 sports cars, etc. etc. etc. That's just unrealistic. I'm happy. That's it. Give me $86,999 a year with normal COLA raises and benefits and I'll live a great life.

Clearly you are used to being a ward of the state. Your entire premise seems to be built around lifetime employment and COLA raises. Neither of these exist outside of government employment.

I know you'll probably turn your nose up at that, but that's your problem, not mine.

As a privately employed taxpayer, boy do I know that it's my problem.

I'm also not saying that I never would like more, nor would I not look for more should the opportunity present itself. I'm simply saying that $86K a year is plenty of money to live a very good life on if you are not foolish and wasteful. If you can't see that, you need to learn to live within your means.

If you have guaranteed lifetime employment, healthcare and a pension then perhaps. Unfortunately these conditions do not exist in the real world.

You don't have one.

Not entirely true. I told you I fly contract. Hell I know guys that fly contract full time that probably make more money than you. Do they not have jobs? Well, in the eyes of the law they are 'self employed'. I guess I am too, although I don't intend to be for any longer than I have to.

Why not? It sounds great. According to you contract guys can earn more than I can. Why leave that gravy train?

You will probably be able to find someone willing to let you fly their airplane for free. It sounds like you would be willing.

Once again, putting words in my mouth, and making $hit up because you simply can't make a valid argument. Stop wasting my time. I will quote myself again from earlier:

"Would I do it for free or cheap? Hell no. I have more important things to worry about.....like food, mortgage, family, etc. The second that flying becomes a problem, it's gone. But I'm never going to badmouth someone that says they love what they do for a living. Hell, I envy them."

From my 2nd post. Stop making $hit up and trying to make yourself look righteous. You've only succeeded in doing the opposite.

Your arguments belay your true feelings. You seem to think that salaries will go up on their own. (As someone who was raised under government employment I can see how you would come to this conclusion.)

They won't. They need to be driven up and statements like "flying is the easiest job in the world 90% of the time" will never result in that happening.

You're the one that doesn't get it, and it doesn't surprise ME. Guys like you are a dime a dozen.......I've seen them every day I've flown, and every day on here. The 'never admit you might possibly like your job' crowd. Complete idiots.

I like my job very much and think the guys who spend every flight bitching are a waste of space.

That is not what we are talking about however. We are talking about what is an appropriate statement to either the press, outsiders or management.

Sullinberger did a good job during his testimony to Congress. He did not talk of unicorns, rainbows and magic takeoffs. That does not mean he bitches about his job constantly.

The kind of people that would complain about getting blowjo-bs all day for a living just so they would have something to complain about. Get a life, man. Take a step back, stop whining, and be thankful for what you have. There's about 5 billion other people on this planet that would love to be where you are in a second. I'm not saying don't work to better yourself or your situation, but there's no reason to bitch constantly about how tough your life is or badmouth others for being happy with theirs when in reality, you have it better than about 80% of the world's population. Go get in the car, head to Subway, and ask them to make you a STFU SANDWICH. You need one.

You still don't get it but I hope you oneday do.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

The conclusion

As soon as I read the article and saw Kit darby's statement about Lubbock, I realized that "the general" is kit darby!

Anyone else see it?

KBB

 

[kmox29]

Purple Sunsets and unicorn formations...

For some reason, when I picture this, I laugh aloud.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Wow, you are one angry little girl. If the guy at the top of the pyramid earns $200,000 or less what do you think the lower levels are going to look like?

Oh gee, I don't know.....six figures? Poor little babies.....you have is sooooooooooo tough. STFU moron.


Congratulations, you have just proven conclusively that you have no clue how to negotiate. YOU made the INITIAL OFFER! Of course he took it genius. Was he able to hide his smile?

So you made the NBAA average your starting point. I am not even going to try to explain this one to you.

He didn't hide his smile and neither did I. You mean to tell me that making the same average salary that everyone else in the country flying the same equipment is not fair? Of course it isn't; you're one of those militant union types that thinks everyone else is scum and out to get you. Some of us are a bit more civilized then that and can act like gentlemen. You, of course, don't really give a damn about anybody but yourself, and will pi$$ all over whoever you have to to get it. Tell me something, how well are your first year FO's taken care of? How are those reserve work rules? Oh right........senior captains negotiate the contracts and could give a rat's a$$ about the first year FO's. I WANT MY EXTRA $20 AN HOUR!! I DON'T CARE ABOUT RESERVE RULES!!! I DON'T SIT RESERVE! I WANT A RAISE!! TAKE IT AWAY FROM THE RAMPERS AND THE MECHANICS!! SURE THE FIRST YEAR FO'S CAN MAKE $20k! THAT'S FINE! I GET MY MONEY!!! It's amazing, some of us in this world actually give a damn about others, and can see the big picture. You obviously can't.



Narrowbody lineholding CA at a legacy major. I guess you are unfamiliar with UAL and USAir payrates. You are no better than the flying public who believe ALL airline pilots earn phenomenal salaries.

Then use your mega super awesome negotiating skills and get a raise. Are you a part of the union or do you just sit on the sidelines and whine?




Why am I not surprised.


What happened was he worked in a job with 100% job security and a government guaranteed pension. Therefore he could afford to invest all of his discretionary income in as high risk a portfolio as he could stomach as he was a ward of the state. Color me unimpressed with daddy.

Unimpressed? Maybe he's smarter than you. Maybe he's smarter than us both. Maybe he chose a career path where he knew him and his family were going to be taken care of forever. Maybe, on top of that, he took steps with what he had to insure a sizable income for life even after retirement, along with a nice inheritance to leave behind. Enjoy pi$$ing all your money away. Maybe you should do the same.



Retirement planning is easy when everbody else is paying to finance your retirement.



I am sure that it is.

It was not your father's "smart investments" that provided him with security, it was the government's largess. Gaurentee my employment for life and I too will be able to make "smart" investments. One of these days you are going to have to stand on your own and stop citing daddy as your example. How is your retirement plan looking?


My retirement plan has been in motion since the day I left college. I have a running 401K, along with 2 Roth IRA's that I have already been putting in to for 10 years. In order to contribute the max every year, I go without crap like new plasma TV's, pontoon boats, and a new car every 2 years. It's not that hard, junior. Maybe you should look more than 10 minutes ahead sometime in your life

Oh yeah.......I also noticed you didn't have a damn thing in the world to say about my other friend from the private sector. Cat got your tongue?



Clearly you are used to being a ward of the state. Your entire premise seems to be built around lifetime employment and COLA raises. Neither of these exist outside of government employment.

I don't know what you've been smoking, but as I've moved up, so has my salary. I started low when I started out, now my qualifications speak for a much higher paycheck then they did when I was 25. I have also NEVER left a company at the same salary I was hired at. Of course, you don't have that luxury in the airline industry, but that is entirely of your own doing. YOU wanted a seniority based, hourly wage type compensation package, and you got it. YOU wanted people to start at the bottom from day 1 and you got it. Most any other industry, and in 91 and 135 flying experience demands compensation. You made your bed, now you sleep in it. You started down this path X number of years ago, claimed you knew what you were getting in to, and now you're whining about where you are. Not my damn problem. You don't like it? Change it. Change careers.



As a privately employed taxpayer, boy do I know that it's my problem.



If you have guaranteed lifetime employment, healthcare and a pension then perhaps. Unfortunately these conditions do not exist in the real world.

They do and they don't.....honestly it's a matter of luck. But, if you're smart, you can take steps to insure that when luck isn't with you, good planning is going to be something to fall back on.....a concept lost on most of you. My uncle worked for the same individual for 30 years flying a Citation single pilot. He's retired and happy now, and his boss was a good man that took care of him. I'd bet any amount of money you wouldn't have lasted 2 years there because you'd be demanding, whiny, and untrusting, always assuming that the big bad rich man was out to get you. So sad.



Why not? It sounds great. According to you contract guys can earn more than I can. Why leave that gravy train?

Explained that in my last post. Again LEARN TO READ PLEASE.



Your arguments belay your true feelings. You seem to think that salaries will go up on their own. (As someone who was raised under government employment I can see how you would come to this conclusion.)

They won't. They need to be driven up and statements like "flying is the easiest job in the world 90% of the time" will never result in that happening.

So, basically, I need to lie, right?


I like my job very much and think the guys who spend every flight bitching are a waste of space.

That is not what we are talking about however. We are talking about what is an appropriate statement to either the press, outsiders or management.

Sullinberger did a good job during his testimony to Congress. He did not talk of unicorns, rainbows and magic takeoffs. That does not mean he bitches about his job constantly.



You still don't get it but I hope you oneday do.


There's only one of us here that doesn't get it, and it's not me. God help your kids if you have any.

.....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Two points....

The issue goes from comments taken out of text to rabid fighting amongst ourselves.

Never talk to the press. They will cut, modify, enhance and do whatever they can to give your comments an edge that will sell newspapers. The temptation is very strong when a reporter approaches you. It is like being in a police interrogation room... you feel if you just tell the truth they'll understand and let you go.....

Don't talk to the press....... ever.

 

[ableone]

Oh gee, I don't know.....six figures? Poor little babies.....you have is sooooooooooo tough. STFU moron.

For someone so obviously challenged you throw the moron word around pretty often.

Congratulations, you have just proven conclusively that you have no clue how to negotiate. YOU made the INITIAL OFFER! Of course he took it genius. Was he able to hide his smile?

So you made the NBAA average your starting point. I am not even going to try to explain this one to you.

He didn't hide his smile and neither did I. You mean to tell me that making the same average salary that everyone else in the country flying the same equipment is not fair?

We are not talking about what is fair. We are talking about what is smart. You left money on the table, which is not smart.

Secondly those averages are the result of individuals raising the bar by negotiating with purpose to increase their own pay and the average. You not only did a disservice to yourself but to others as well.

Of course it isn't; you're one of those militant union types that thinks everyone else is scum and out to get you. Some of us are a bit more civilized then that and can act like gentlemen. You, of course, don't really give a damn about anybody but yourself, and will pi$$ all over whoever you have to to get it. Oh right........senior captains negotiate the contracts and could give a rat's a$$ about the first year FO's. I WANT MY EXTRA $20 AN HOUR!! I DON'T CARE ABOUT RESERVE RULES!!! I DON'T SIT RESERVE! I WANT A RAISE!! TAKE IT AWAY FROM THE RAMPERS AND THE MECHANICS!! SURE THE FIRST YEAR FO'S CAN MAKE $20k! THAT'S FINE! I GET MY MONEY!!! It's amazing, some of us in this world actually give a damn about others, and can see the big picture. You obviously can't.

Take it easy, don't blow a gasket.

A rising tide lifts all boats. Though there is no excuse for a contract that raids the juniors to improve the seniors, there must be increases at the top levels in order to improve the lower levels.

You are not more civilized, you are less intelligent. You did not know how to negotiate your pay and you were laid off. Not a surprise.

Then use your mega super awesome negotiating skills and get a raise. Are you a part of the union or do you just sit on the sidelines and whine?

When I worked corporate and on - demand I did negotiate both my initial pay and later pay raises. ( Clue - I never referenced an NBAA "average". )

As far as the airline, where collective bargaining is in play, I have been extensively involved with the union. Though it does become tiring helping out people such as yourself who can not operate on their own.

Why am I not surprised.


What happened was he worked in a job with 100% job security and a government guaranteed pension. Therefore he could afford to invest all of his discretionary income in as high risk a portfolio as he could stomach as he was a ward of the state. Color me unimpressed with daddy.

Unimpressed? Maybe he's smarter than you. Maybe he's smarter than us both. Maybe he chose a career path where he knew him and his family were going to be taken care of forever. Maybe, on top of that, he took steps with what he had to insure a sizable income for life even after retirement, along with a nice inheritance to leave behind. Enjoy pi$$ing all your money away. Maybe you should do the same.

We can't all be government employees.

Retirement planning is easy when everbody else is paying to finance your retirement.



I am sure that it is.

It was not your father's "smart investments" that provided him with security, it was the government's largess. Gaurentee my employment for life and I too will be able to make "smart" investments. One of these days you are going to have to stand on your own and stop citing daddy as your example. How is your retirement plan looking?


My retirement plan has been in motion since the day I left college. I have a running 401K, along with 2 Roth IRA's that I have already been putting in to for 10 years. In order to contribute the max every year, I go without crap like new plasma TV's, pontoon boats, and a new car every 2 years. It's not that hard, junior. Maybe you should look more than 10 minutes ahead sometime in your life

Oh yeah.......I also noticed you didn't have a damn thing in the world to say about my other friend from the private sector. Cat got your tongue?

I did not ask what your contribution level was. That means nothing. What is your projected principle and rate of return at retirement. If you don't know, you don't have a retirement plan. You are just hoping for the best, not planning.

I can already tell by the fact that you think $87,000/yr in a private sector job is pure bliss that you are in for a rude awakening.

Unless you follow in daddy's footsteps and suck at the public teat.

With respect to your daddy's friend in the private sector. You indicated he worked at the same company for 30+ years and had a pension. I don't too many people these days with either lifetime employment or a pension. Unless you can cite a current example you are talking about what was not what is.

Clearly you are used to being a ward of the state. Your entire premise seems to be built around lifetime employment and COLA raises. Neither of these exist outside of government employment.

I don't know what you've been smoking, but as I've moved up, so has my salary. I started low when I started out, now my qualifications speak for a much higher paycheck then they did when I was 25. I have also NEVER left a company at the same salary I was hired at.

Indeed, you left when they cut your salary to zero.

You are correct your record of having NEVER left a company at your initial salary is quite safe. I just would not brag that much about the fact.

Of course, you don't have that luxury in the airline industry, but that is entirely of your own doing. YOU wanted a seniority based, hourly wage type compensation package, and you got it. YOU wanted people to start at the bottom from day 1 and you got it. Most any other industry, and in 91 and 135 flying experience demands compensation. You made your bed, now you sleep in it. You started down this path X number of years ago, claimed you knew what you were getting in to, and now you're whining about where you are. Not my damn problem. You don't like it? Change it. Change careers.

Where is it I was complaining about either the seniority system or the airline compensation system?

As a privately employed taxpayer, boy do I know that it's my problem.



If you have guaranteed lifetime employment, healthcare and a pension then perhaps. Unfortunately these conditions do not exist in the real world.

They do and they don't.....honestly it's a matter of luck. But, if you're smart, you can take steps to insure that when luck isn't with you, good planning is going to be something to fall back on.....a concept lost on most of you. My uncle worked for the same individual for 30 years flying a Citation single pilot. He's retired and happy now, and his boss was a good man that took care of him. I'd bet any amount of money you wouldn't have lasted 2 years there because you'd be demanding, whiny, and untrusting, always assuming that the big bad rich man was out to get you. So sad.

Again, from where do you infer any of your above prognosticating?

Why not? It sounds great. According to you contract guys can earn more than I can. Why leave that gravy train?

Explained that in my last post. Again LEARN TO READ PLEASE.

Ah yes the part where you said you are the type who needs "a regular paycheck." How is that working out for you?

In case you have not noticed there is no such thing as a guarantee that you will be paid every two weeks. (government employment excepted.)

Your arguments belay your true feelings. You seem to think that salaries will go up on their own. (As someone who was raised under government employment I can see how you would come to this conclusion.)

They won't. They need to be driven up and statements like "flying is the easiest job in the world 90% of the time" will never result in that happening.

So, basically, I need to lie, right?

If you really believe that flying is mostly effortless and that the chief requirements are the ability to order a drink and play golf then who am I to argue that pilots are not grossly overpaid.

Then again you came of age in a time when easy, fast advancement was the way of the world in aviation. You probably don't even know what carrying an airplane means. (i.e. you are a punk kid, in case you could not read between the lines.)

I like my job very much and think the guys who spend every flight bitching are a waste of space.

That is not what we are talking about however. We are talking about what is an appropriate statement to either the press, outsiders or management.

Sullinberger did a good job during his testimony to Congress. He did not talk of unicorns, rainbows and magic takeoffs. That does not mean he bitches about his job constantly.



You still don't get it but I hope you oneday do.


There's only one of us here that doesn't get it, and it's not me. God help your kids if you have any.

So you believe that instead of testifying as he did, Sullenberger should have opined that he loved flying airplanes, considered himself extremely lucky that he was doing a job that the rest of the world would kill to do and that everybody would be crazy not to want to be an airline pilot where they could experience magical takeoffs, play golf on overnights and imbibe umbrella covered drinks.