Add 'pilot' to list of jobs that aren't so great now

[CapnVegetto]

CapnVegetto, I understand and appreciate your willingness to defend your friend, as well as your right to enjoy your job.

But, to join the laundry list, here, General Lee is correct.

You've got to realize that there's a reason those rich bastards that you fly to the Caribbean are the people who have it all. They know how to negotiate for themselves. And, they know how to protect themselves through contracts. They have an "all-for-me, nothing-for-you" attitude. And, that's typical management in just about every mega-corporation today (with a few exceptions, such as SWA). Pilots should not have that mentality, but I'm stating that that's how management and the rich view it.

Why shouldn't pilots protect themselves? If a high-level executive can protect himself through his contract, why can't labor? And, why can't we demand a livable wage for flying that Beech 1900? The problem is that pilots haven't demanded decent wages and equal protection under the law.

And, the economy's not going to get better. We've entered the dreaded "L-shaped" economy. We're not going to spring back. The USA has lost its way. We no-longer have the essential manufacturing base which any successful country needs, and too many jobs have been outsourced to slave-labor/sweatshop operations overseas. In my opinion, we've got Clinton, Bush, and now Obama to thank for either causing the problem or failing to do anything to prevent it. And, they've enabled the rich to get richer, while the poor get poorer. Once that's done, it's all over. When the rich have all the money, that's exactly where it stays.

Every time we "smile" while seeing that beautiful sunrise among the clouds, try to keep in mind that that's not synonymous with having a secure, equitable future as a pilot. Until we achieve that, let's stop talking about the sunrises.

A well put arguement DH106. Happy to debate with someone that isn't a complete idiot.

However, what you say is not entirely true.

Most airline pilots labor under the false conception that all management and rich people are evil, overcompensated bastards that have no morals and fell backwards into money they didn't earn.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Now, that's not to say there are not some scumbags out there, because there damn sure is. Hell, I wouldn't pi$$ on Jonathan Ornstein if he was on fire. He is a piece of $hit with no morals, damn straight. But I'll give you a fact about Jonatan Ornstein. Whether you like him or not, he works his A$$ off. He has for 30 years. You don't become CEO of an airline by slacking and working 10 days a month. You don't become CEO of anything by getting lucky. You become CEO because of an ungodly work ethic, and because the people making promotions and naming management believe that you will make them more money then anybody else. Shareholders have no interest in naming an incompetent boob as their CEO because it affects them DIRECTLY in the wallet.

Look at the ex CEO of Southwest, probably the most respected guy in airline management in a long time. Labor loved him, management loved him, shareholders loved him. On the surface, they are as different as night and day. But their work ethic is essentially the same. That's the difference between them and us.

Why am I not a multimillion dollar CEO of a major corporation? The answer is because I am not a workaholic. I don't want to spend 80 hours a week in an office. I'm perfectly happy working 10-15 days a month and spending the rest of the time playing golf, poker, and raising my little girl. My priorities are different. That is ok.

Now there are definitely some scumbags out there. But there are scumbag pilots too. There are also scumbag insurance agents, McDonalds managers, vice presidents, politicians, and taxi drivers. The only real difference I see in upper management vs. labor is that upper management, for the most part, wants to put work before everything else, whereas labor wants to put family and other priorities before work. Everyone here always wants to bash management. Ok, fine. You don't like it? Become one. Hell, get involved in the union and work your ass off for them. Move into the upper echelon of the union and deal with management directly. Or, become involved in the management process. But be ready to sacrifice. I won't say it's harder than flying an airplane, because it really isn't. But it damn sure is going to require more time and effort. That's the difference.

 

[GearUpJammer]

Relief Tube, you are one angry little boy.Nothing against RAH pilots, but your airline isn't excactly bringing up the industry. As an AirTran pilot with 20 years in this business I take your comments personally.This industry has changed dramatically and we can thank deregulation. I have been on the street 3 times in my career and I could sit here all day and point fingers and blame for my plight but it wouldn't change a thing. I have friends that work or have worked for just about every airline and I don't generalize about anyone's circumstances. For you to blame AirTran when some of your FO's are making what I made 20 years ago flying turboprops is ludicrous. I hope everything works out for you because if it doesn't you're going to have a hard time getting hired with that big chip on your shoulder.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Perhaps a compromise...those of you who, "love your job" could change your statement to, "love to fly." When you reference the job, you are recognizing the pay and benefits as well as the working conditions.

CapnV-

How did your buddy get his job at JetBlue anyway (how long was he flying professionally beforehand)? I read the article the other day and I remember thinking that he sounded like he got hired there very quickly after completing his flight training.

Lastly, to those of you who use the, "the cockpit is my office in the sky" line I want you to know I die a little inside everytime I hear someone say this crap!

 

[CapnVegetto]

Perhaps a compromise...those of you who, "love your job" could change your statement to, "love to fly." When you reference the job, you are recognizing the pay and benefits as well as the working conditions.

CapnV-

How did your buddy get his job at JetBlue anyway (how long was he flying professionally beforehand)? I read the article the other day and I remember thinking that he sounded like he got hired there very quickly after completing his flight training.

Lastly,those of you who use the, "the cockpit is my office in the sky" line I want you to know I die a little inside everytime I hear someone say this crap!

Naw, he was an ERJ captain for about 2 or 3 years before he got hired, an F/O 2 or 3 years before that. Pretty normal career progression, got on at a non-furloughing place at a semi decent time. He's made it through this terribad economy unscathed, and there will probably be some movement in the next few years. Pretty normal career progression, with a small amount of luck.

 

[Penguin46]

Scaled down expectations

"Think of [the regional airlines] as an apprenticeship to live through and get to the next level," says [Kit] Darby.



The low regional salaries are partially due to low time pilots building time and experience in order to step up to the next $ level. It still pays more than flight instructing at the local FBO. However, with the regionals doing a lion’s share of the domestic flying with large jets (and getting bigger) - the next level is becoming eroded to a more "regional" like level with all those dandy accoutrements such as pay, retirement, work rules, rest, blah blah……
The industry has truly become whacked.

 

[ableone]

Originally Posted by ableone
with these negotiating skills you are never going to be well compensated.

depends on what you consider to be 'well compensated.' sounds to me like you consider yourself to be worth a lot. Am i well compensated? Well, i have a house, car, plenty of money, food, clothing, golf membership, and enough savings to get through a year of not having a job. I think i'm pretty well compensated. You probably would disagree, but i live a damn good life.

I do consider my skills to be worth a fair amount. You say you think you are well compensated but you don't have a job? I think you meant to say that you considered yourself well compensated while still employed.

You rail against those who don't live within their means but then state you have a golf club membership and no job. Good luck with that.

clearly you are part of the problem as you don't value your skills. You have just told the world that you are not worth $200,000. Guess what? The world is going to oblige you and never offer you anywhere near that much money.

putting words into my mouth? Um......can you not f*cking read? At no point in my post did i ever say that nor imply it. This is pure crap made up by you in an attempt to make yourself look better.

Not at all. You stated that anyone making $200,000 who had the temerity to expect more pay deserved to be punched "in the f*cking mouth". That definitely implies that you believe that $200,000 is the absolute maximum ceiling that any pilot should ever be paid.

Considering that, according to you, consuming umbrella drinks and playing golf are the most challenging aspects to your employment i too would have endeavored to cut your salary or eliminate your employment.

wow......how clueless are you? I've got news for you, skippy......whether you want to admit it or not, flying an airplane is one of the easiest jobs in the world about 90% of the time.

Again, please don't speak for the profession, you are a disaster.

It's one of the hardest jobs in the world when the weather is bad or when something goes wrong. One of the biggest running jokes in the corporate world is "boy i'd love to turn around and negotiate a raise with my boss when we have an engine on fire."

Unfortunately, because you open every conversation about the flying profession with statements like "It's the easiest job in the world 90% of the time - All I do is play golf and drink - flying makes me feel as happy as a five year old girl in her first dress" etc. You are never going to be an effective negotiator. I am absolutely sure that when you started your former job you were paid what was initially offered. Had you been offered less you would have taken it because you don't seem to have the ability to leverage your pay.

well guess what? If the boss wants an airplane, my job isn't going anywhere. The airplane doesn't fly itself. The bad news is that the company airplane is probably one of the most liquid assets they have, and it's always the first thing to go when times get bad.

I believe you indicated your boss still has an airplane, yet you don't have a job.

aside from your anger issues i must point out that the pilot who earns $200,000 is not only rare but he or she may have only started to earn that figure late in their career progression. Unlike public employees who enjoy a gold plated pension and health plan the man in his late fifties who just got to $200,000 is self funding his retirement income and healthcare. Fyi the wall street journal recommends that those who retire with a decent healthcare plan should have $2 million set aside to cover gaps in their health care. Since you apparently think that $200,000/year is an outrageous salary i must point out that unless you start earning this amount around your 30th year it's going to be hard to finance your own retirement.

$200,000 a year, probably rare. I'll give you that. Most major airline captains make around that, along with a few corporate guys.

Really? I am a capt at a major and I don't make 200,000. I also don't know any other major ca's who make that.

But i say again, i've spent the last 7 years watching my father's retirement. At the tail end of his career he broke 6 figures. He'll never work another day in his life. I have another retired friend that has never broken 6 figures. He's set for life. How? Because they know how to live within their means and manage money, a concept lost on most of you people. You make it sound like a pilot makes $30,000 a year until they're 50, then all of a sudden make $200k. Wrong again scooter. Hell, even regional captains make a decent living. Major and legacy f/o's make a great living, with the exception of first year. Here's another fact: If you make a 6 figure salary, you are in the top 5% of incomes in this country. Stop bitching and learn how to manage what you have. Stop blowing your money on giant houses you don't need, ex wives, boats, sports cars, and stupid $hit and then piss and moan about your retirement. F*ck off. I have no sympathy for you. You are the problem, not me.

Oh, you seem to have a problem. (or two)

For one thing you seem to believe that your JetBlue friend's career progression is "normal". A couple of years at a regional as an FO, a couple as a captain and on to JB.

I've got news for you. That was a very rapid progression in an a time of aviation anomalies. It was not possible to advance this fast in the past, nor will it be in the future.

With respect to your father and your retired friend, do they have pensions and retirement healthcare? You have not specified, you only stated that they knew how to manage their money, which is the same thing as saying they were lucky with their investments. Not much of a strategy.

Do you know what the definition of a middle class income is? According to Forbes the bottom end is about $87,000 and the top is around $800,000.

Regarding your 5% argument. You will find that your statistics are out of date.

You also are not compensating for one of the most dangerous trends to afflict the US economy - the shrinking middle class. Every year the US moves closer to an economic class system that looks like Mexico's - A small group at the top, a very miniscule middle class and a large poor group. Your, 95% of the population makes less than six figures so stop b1tching argument, is very effective when applied to the the Mexican economy as well. No thanks.

you just might be a tool.

hahahahahhaahahahahhahhahhahahahhahhahah!!!!

Let me translate this statement for all of those that are reading: "um....i have no valid argument for the points mentioned in the previous paragraph, so i'm going to resort to name calling!!!!!!! Poopoo head!!!!

Hahahahhahhahaha i'm still laughing.

I must be the bad guy here because i know how to financially plan. Oh my gawd!!!! Amazing. This guy might be the biggest moron in a sea of morons. All hail the king moron!!

Oooookay then.

no-one was talking $hit about your friend. They just happened to mention that his statements were at best unsophisticated and not well thought out.

I find this criticism to be accurate.

unsophisticated and not well thought out? Well here's another one for you. I like my job!!!!

You don't have one.

I love to fly airplanes!!

You will probably be able to find someone willing to let you fly their airplane for free. It sounds like you would be willing.

Ok fine, crucify me because i like what i do for a living.

You don't do it for a living. You currently play golf and "manage your money."

\I don't see porn stars getting crap from other porn stars because they say they like to f*ck. Hell, i'd be willing to bet they like to f*ck when they're not getting paid for it too! Oh my gawd!!! They're destroying the porn industry!!! We could be earning twice as much if we didn't actually like to f*ck and just put up with it for money!!!!

Interesting analogy.

Do you subscribe to one of their trade journals?

You see the parallels here? I'm sick and tired of people getting slammed on here for coming on and saying they are happy and like their jobs. Just f*cking shut the hell up. If someone goes in a newspaper article and makes a positive statement about what they do for a living and enjoying it, stop bashing them because you are miserable and stupid. Hell, go watch some porn. Maybe you'll feel better.

You still don't get it but that is not surprising.

Take it easy Francis.

 

[dougdrvr]

Naw, he was an ERJ captain for about 2 or 3 years before he got hired, an F/O 2 or 3 years before that. Pretty normal career progression, got on at a non-furloughing place at a semi decent time. He's made it through this terribad economy unscathed, and there will probably be some movement in the next few years. Pretty normal career progression, with a small amount of luck.

Just off the top of my head, spending only 2 years as an FO is NOT a normal career progession. If you go back to Ford Trimotors to present day on average, I think it would be considered exceptional! Most pilots today think 2 years in the right seat is a travesty. It may seem normal if you only measure it against the last 10 to 15 years.

 

[thepotato232]

You guys aren't exactly net savvy, are you?

You're all locked in a war of words with a guy with a Dragonball name and avatar who lists World of Warcraft characters under his "Current Position". Everything he says is engineered to be a gross caricature of the pop culture-addled ignorant young regional puke. You respond to anything he says, you've already lost.

To emphasize: This guy is a TROLL. He is a WIND-UP ARTIST. He's not even a subtle one. He BROADCASTS this fact every time he posts. He hangs around to piss off all the people who thought Instructordude and Browntothebone were too subtle. He's just not as funny as they were.

Vegetto: As someone who spent a lot of time dodging Goons and /b/tards back in the day, it should carry some weight when I say that you are one of the most artless trolls I've ever seen. I don't know what's more pathetic: Your JV-level antics, or the predictability of the response you get.

...Actually, scratch that. It's definitely the latter.

 

[ableone]

I don't know. I think his anger is charmingly genuine.

Instructordude take note.

 

[CapnVegetto]

You rail against those who don't live within their means but then state you have a golf club membership and no job. Good luck with that.

Yes, I do still have the membership. I also have the ability to cancel it whenever it becomes a problem. Right now, it's not. Next.



Not at all. You stated that anyone making $200,000 who had the temerity to expect more pay deserved to be punched "in the f*cking mouth". That definitely implies that you believe that $200,000 is the absolute maximum ceiling that any pilot should ever be paid.

Wrong again scooter.......I guess they didn't teach reading where you went to school? Here is my exact quote:

"When I hear someone bitching and whining about making $200,000 a year while working 10 days a month I want to punch them in the f*cking mouth."

What does that imply? That means there are people like you all over the place making this kind of money that do nothing but whine bitch piss and moan like little babies because they don't know how good they've got it. NOWHERE in this did I EVER say that anyone shouldn't work to better their situation, nor did I badmouth anyone who thinks they might deserve more. Maybe you do. I really don't care. What I am saying, and have been saying all the time is that I can't stand to hear idiots sitting in a comfy left seat with 3000 people below them on a seniority list and a six-figure income do nothing but bitch and whine about how tough their poor little life is. F*ck off. You make me sick.





Again, please don't speak for the profession, you are a disaster.

I'm a disaster beacuse I speak positively about what I do for a living. OK.




Unfortunately, because you open every conversation about the flying profession with statements like "It's the easiest job in the world 90% of the time - All I do is play golf and drink - flying makes me feel as happy as a five year old girl in her first dress" etc. You are never going to be an effective negotiator. I am absolutely sure that when you started your former job you were paid what was initially offered. Had you been offered less you would have taken it because you don't seem to have the ability to leverage your pay.

Wow, you are stacking up the wrong s-hit. I made NBAA average for my salary, which is more than fair. Salary was negotiated by me using those tables. I made the initial offer. He took it.


I believe you indicated your boss still has an airplane, yet you don't have a job.

Yep. I was the 5th one laid off this year. 3 airplanes have been parked. The one I was on was the 3rd. I actually flew less than 200 hours last year, so I wasn't really surprised when it happened.


Really? I am a capt at a major and I don't make 200,000. I also don't know any other major ca's who make that.

I know 3. Play golf with them every week. So 1 of 3 things is true: 1. You consider Jetblue, Airtran, or somebody like that a major, 2. You are really junior, or 3. You work the absolute bare minimum.



Oh, you seem to have a problem. (or two)


With respect to your father and your retired friend, do they have pensions and retirement healthcare? You have not specified, you only stated that they knew how to manage their money, which is the same thing as saying they were lucky with their investments. Not much of a strategy.

I'll answer this right off. My father worked for the government, so his was a given. They have the TSP, pension, and govt healthcare so he was good to go from day 1 of retirement. Sure, that part was easy, but there was also the 2 paid off houses, 2 paid off cars, 75 acres of land bought as an investment 20 years ago that they get timber money off of that has gone up in value about 20X, Stocks he bought, Bonds, Roth IRA's Simple IRA's, Gold, and Silver. To put it simply, not all his eggs were in one basket. He's not even old enough to draw Social Security yet, and he's been retired for 5 years now. So what happened? Instead of blowing his money on stupid $hit like I see most people doing, he saved for the future. Sure, he blew some of it, we all do. But he was smart, he spread it around, and grew it. Now he's enjoying the fruits of that. Government retirement pension is 60% of what you made in your top 3 salary years of service. So basically if you made $100K a year for 3 years you get $60K. On top of that, if you die first, your wife continues to get it until she dies. Because of my father's smart investments and putting back, his pension is supplemented with everything else on top of that. He'll have 6 figures for the rest of his life every year while never having to work. No mortgage payment, no car payments, or none of that other crap helps too. He's actually getting close to buying a new truck and plans to pay cash for it. Must be nice.

The other guy I know worked for the same private corporation for 30+ years and put back into his retirement for as long as he was there, and now has that to live off of. The only difference is once again, instead of blowing his money on crap and running up more credit, he has a paid for house, paid for car, and no debt at all. His monthly living expenses are covered by social security. He earns more than 50K a year just on interest on his retirement money. That's plenty to live on when you have no expenses, with leftover money to buy toys with. If he ever decided to reverse mortgage his house he'd have even more, but he wants to be able to leave it for his daughter.




Do you know what the definition of a middle class income is? According to Forbes the bottom end is about $87,000 and the top is around $800,000.

Regarding your 5% argument. You will find that your statistics are out of date.


Thanks for the ecomony lesson. So, if I make $86,999 a year what am I, poverty class? Poor? I say once again I've lived a really damn good life when I was growing up on much less than that. Now, inflation is a factor, but still, you must not consider yourself valid middle class unless you have a $800K house, boat, 3 sports cars, etc. etc. etc. That's just unrealistic. I'm happy. That's it. Give me $86,999 a year with normal COLA raises and benefits and I'll live a great life. I know you'll probably turn your nose up at that, but that's your problem, not mine. I'm also not saying that I never would like more, nor would I not look for more should the opportunity present itself. I'm simply saying that $86K a year is plenty of money to live a very good life on if you are not foolish and wasteful. If you can't see that, you need to learn to live within your means.



Oooookay then.

I still see no argument. Next.



You don't have one.

Not entirely true. I told you I fly contract. Hell I know guys that fly contract full time that probably make more money than you. Do they not have jobs? Well, in the eyes of the law they are 'self employed'. I guess I am too, although I don't intend to be for any longer than I have to. I'm the type of guy that likes to have a steady paycheck coming in, and know what I'm getting every 2 weeks. I know plenty of guys that are OK not doing that, for example a friend of mine in west Texas that is a rancher. But that's not me. I'm looking for a job. I'll get one sooner or later.

You will probably be able to find someone willing to let you fly their airplane for free. It sounds like you would be willing.

Once again, putting words in my mouth, and making $hit up because you simply can't make a valid argument. Stop wasting my time. I will quote myself again from earlier:

"Would I do it for free or cheap? Hell no. I have more important things to worry about.....like food, mortgage, family, etc. The second that flying becomes a problem, it's gone. But I'm never going to badmouth someone that says they love what they do for a living. Hell, I envy them."

From my 2nd post. Stop making $hit up and trying to make yourself look righteous. You've only succeeded in doing the opposite.




You don't do it for a living. You currently play golf and "manage your money."

See earlier statement about contract. Wrong again.



Interesting analogy.

Do you subscribe to one of their trade journals?

Hell no, my wife would kick me in the balls and feed me the leftovers. Besides, why pay for it when you can get it ALL over the internet for free.

Honey, don't read this.



You still don't get it but that is not surprising.

Take it easy Francis

You're the one that doesn't get it, and it doesn't surprise ME. Guys like you are a dime a dozen.......I've seen them every day I've flown, and every day on here. The 'never admit you might possibly like your job' crowd. Complete idiots. The kind of people that would complain about getting blowjo-bs all day for a living just so they would have something to complain about. Get a life, man. Take a step back, stop whining, and be thankful for what you have. There's about 5 billion other people on this planet that would love to be where you are in a second. I'm not saying don't work to better yourself or your situation, but there's no reason to bitch constantly about how tough your life is or badmouth others for being happy with theirs when in reality, you have it better than about 80% of the world's population. Go get in the car, head to Subway, and ask them to make you a STFU SANDWICH. You need one.

Good day chucklehead.