Add 'pilot' to list of jobs that aren't so great now

[CapnVegetto]

Well, the only real problem I have with some of you people is the fact that if any pilot anywhere ever utters the words "I like my job," then they are absolutely CRUCIFIED on here. That is exactly where the 'f*ck off' comes in from me. Badmouthing a good friend of mine in that regard, were it done in person, would probably earn you an a$$ kicking. Of course, its much easier to do over the internet, where people can hide from the consequences behind a screen name.

Guess what? I like my job. Well, I liked my job. I'm laid off as well, due to a piece of crap economy damn near putting the company I worked for out of business. 3rd airplane parked or sold this year, I was the 5th layoff.

Colgan, the crappiest of the crappy is hiring, and I'd bet my left nut they have a stack of resumes to the ceiling. Guess what? That's called supply and demand. There's 20 gazillion damn pilots out there looking for a job right now. I know, because for every little thing that has popped up I'm having to fight against 5000 other people applying for 1 damn position. Hell, I'd go to Colgan if it were a financially viable option. But for me, it's not. I have mortgage insurance on my house and collect unemployment. I can pay my bills and feed my family for now. I'm OK. I pick up contract work when I can and spend as much time with my little girl as possible. But I'm damn sure not going to come on here and badmouth anybody for going to work at Colgan, or Mesa, or whatever. I don't know them. I don't know their situation. But I do know one thing: some money is better than no money.

Preach all you want about pilots not doing the job for free. Guess what? I've been hearing the same $hit for 15 years. Well kiss my a$$. If someone asks me if I like my job, I'm going to tell them hell yeah. I get to fly rich a$$holes to tropical destinations, and get to sit on a damn beach and get drunk off gay little umbrella drinks that I don't have to pay for. I get to fly some moron in a suit to some business meeting in some city, and while he's sitting in a damn board room, I'm either drinking, playing golf, or some combination of the two. I can think of a hell of a lot worse way to make a living. I LIKE MY JOB. Would I do it for free or cheap? Hell no. I have more important things to worry about.....like food, mortgage, family, etc. The second that flying becomes a problem, it's gone. But I'm never going to badmouth someone that says they love what they do for a living. Hell, I envy them.

I've met God knows how many pilots since I've been doing this, and I have never met a group of more whiny, bitchy, pi$$y, moany little tit-ty babies in my entire f*cking life. It almost makes me a shame to say it. When I hear someone bitching and whining about making $200,000 a year while working 10 days a month I want to punch them in the f*cking mouth. I've got news for you: If you can't live a damn good life on $200,000 a year, head to the nearest pawn shop, buy yourself a gun, and just f*cking shoot yourself because you are a blight on humanity and need to die. I grew up in a family making an average of about 35% of that and couldn't have been happier. Of course, my parents weren't complete f*cking morons that didn't know how to live within their means. I always had a roof over my head, food on the table, and clothes on my back. I didn't have a vacation home in St. Maartin, or a yacht, or some of the other stupid crap toys that most pilots blow their money on, but frankly, I didn't really care. I don't care now. Sure, it'd be nice, but I'm not losing sleep over it. And I'm certainly not going to spend every dime I have and overexert myself in the blind hope that NOTHING will ever go wrong at my job, I'll never take a paycut, never lose my job, and will always be making as much as or more than I make now. If anyone ever lives like that, they are f*cking stupid. Times go through good spells and bad spells. The reason I'm OK now is because I'm not a moron and know how to financially plan. I don't have a job, but right now it's great because I don't have to go to work. I know I'm good for at least a year. If, in about 7 or 8 months, I still don't have a job (God I hope not), then I'll reassess the situation and form a new plan, maybe even get out of flying for good. But I didn't buy a boat, 2nd house, Porchse, and end up going ape$hit when the economy went bad and problems occurred.

Times WILL get better. Salaries WILL go back up. Jobs WILL reappear. It's GOING to happen. Just a matter of time. Economics have been cyclical for the last 2000 years back when a bad economy meant the cows weren't screwing enough and the corn wasn't growing enough, to the complex economies of today. But nothing has really changes. Bad times, good times, bad times, good times. The trick, like 99% of most of life, is to find the right thing to do in the middle. When the good times are here, make sure you stock up enough corn and cows for the bad times. Because they WILL come.

Anyway, I digress. Don't talk $hit about my friend.

 

[ableone]

Times WILL get better. Salaries WILL go back up. Jobs WILL reappear. It's GOING to happen. Just a matter of time.

Anyway, I digress. Don't talk $hit about my friend.

The General is absolutely correct.

Salaries are definitely not going to go back up on their own. The law of supply and demand that you so giddily cite dictates that salaries will go down. There are more pilots willing to do the same job for less. If you think the free market is the mechanism that will drive salaries up you are very confused, you're probably a member of CRAP. (Confused Republican Airline Pilots)

The only thing that will cause wages ( The only salaried pilots I know are corporate pilots ) to rise is union pressure and bargaining. If the free market is fully unleashed on pilot wages the top earner will be below six figures.

The General was correct about your friend. He did the profession a disservice with his happy talk.

 

[QCappy]

CapnVegetto,

Tell us how you really feel!:laugh:

 

[ableone]

Well kiss my a$$. If someone asks me if I like my job, I'm going to tell them hell yeah. I get to fly rich a$$holes to tropical destinations, and get to sit on a damn beach and get drunk off gay little umbrella drinks that I don't have to pay for. I get to fly some moron in a suit to some business meeting in some city, and while he's sitting in a damn board room, I'm either drinking, playing golf, or some combination of the two. I can think of a hell of a lot worse way to make a living. I LIKE MY JOB. Would I do it for free or cheap? Hell no.

With these negotiating skills you are NEVER going to be well compensated.

I've met God knows how many pilots since I've been doing this, and I have never met a group of more whiny, bitchy, pi$$y, moany little tit-ty babies in my entire f*cking life. It almost makes me a shame to say it. When I hear someone bitching and whining about making $200,000 a year while working 10 days a month I want to punch them in the f*cking mouth.

Clearly you are part of the problem as you don't value your skills. You have just told the world that you are not worth $200,000. Guess what? The world is going to oblige you and never offer you anywhere near that much money.

Considering that, according to you, consuming umbrella drinks and playing golf are the most challenging aspects to your employment I too would have endeavored to cut your salary or eliminate your employment.

I've got news for you: If you can't live a damn good life on $200,000 a year, head to the nearest pawn shop, buy yourself a gun, and just f*cking shoot yourself because you are a blight on humanity and need to die.

Aside from your anger issues I must point out that the pilot who earns $200,000 is not only rare but he or she may have only started to earn that figure late in their career progression. Unlike public employees who enjoy a gold plated pension and health plan the man in his late fifties who just got to $200,000 is self funding his retirement income and healthcare. FYI the Wall Street Journal recommends that those who retire with a decent healthcare plan should have $2 Million set aside to cover gaps in their health care. Since you apparently think that $200,000/year is an outrageous salary I must point out that unless you start earning this amount around your 30th year it's going to be hard to finance your own retirement.

I grew up in a family making an average of about 35% of that and couldn't have been happier. Of course, my parents weren't complete f*cking morons that didn't know how to live within their means. I always had a roof over my head, food on the table, and clothes on my back. I didn't have a vacation home in St. Maartin, or a yacht, or some of the other stupid crap toys that most pilots blow their money on, but frankly, I didn't really care. I don't care now. Sure, it'd be nice, but I'm not losing sleep over it. And I'm certainly not going to spend every dime I have and overexert myself in the blind hope that NOTHING will ever go wrong at my job, I'll never take a paycut, never lose my job, and will always be making as much as or more than I make now. If anyone ever lives like that, they are f*cking stupid. Times go through good spells and bad spells. The reason I'm OK now is because I'm not a moron and know how to financially plan. I don't have a job, but right now it's great because I don't have to go to work. I know I'm good for at least a year. If, in about 7 or 8 months, I still don't have a job (God I hope not), then I'll reassess the situation and form a new plan, maybe even get out of flying for good. But I didn't buy a boat, 2nd house, Porchse, and end up going ape$hit when the economy went bad and problems occurred.

You just might be a tool.

Anyway, I digress. Don't talk $hit about my friend.

No-one was talking $hit about your friend. They just happened to mention that his statements were at best unsophisticated and not well thought out.

I find this criticism to be accurate.

 

[HAL]

Yes, I'll get flamed. But what I've seen on this board for years has been way too black-and-white.

I love my job too. That doesn't mean I'll 'give in' to management just to keep it. I'll negotiate as hard as possible to gain ground in my contract, because I have spent too many years and too many dollars to earn the position I now have. I think that is the only smart way to go. Yet here's where so many others seem to have a disconnect: Why is it required to either be mad at management, or love the job, but not both?

The reality of today's economic world is that everyone has taken a hit over the past few years compared to where pay rates were a decade ago. But the economy as a whole is hurting too. Were $300/hour pay rates in 1999 realistic? Given the fares passengers pay today, probably not. We fight in the real world, not in the 'perfect world'. Yes, we need to improve conditions for all pilots, especially those at the regionals. We use all the resources available to us to negotiate, because that is the only way to make improvements. Sometimes we gain, sometimes we hold still, sometimes we lose ground. That article in the original post has pilots complaining about the hours, pay, and the difficulties of the job. Yet it has always been that way, and always will. It's a tough job, and you sure as heck should have known that going in. But the anger vented against pilots who say they love the job baffles me. If you don't love flying, why did you get into the job in the first place? The history of aviation is packed full of highs and lows. If you didn't study that history before you chose this career, shame on you. And if you've been in the industry for less than a decade, you haven't had a chance to experience the full cycle of ups and down - just the downs for now. But as CapnVegetto said, it will get better eventually. It's up to us to negotiate as strongly as possible, and hang on to whatever gains we can get. If you end up with a career of 20 or 30 years, probably half will be good, half will be bad. But if you enjoy the job itself, that is what makes it worth having.

So again I ask, why is it impossible to carry on the good fight to improve our job, yet still love it at the same time? Why is admitting that a sign of weakness instead of an acknowledgement of reality?

HAL

 

[Blue Dude]

Pathetic.

Sunrises? Magical takeoffs?

When are we going to get a clue? How can we expect management to respect us when we don't even have respect for ourselves and this profession.

You know he didn't write the article, right? That the author and at least one editor took an axe to whatever he said in order to make their own points? Just thought I'd remind you of the obvious since you seem to need it.

 

[aewanabe]

Great point, Blue Dude. I groaned when I read that, but realized it was probably edited down. And Hal is spot on. I do enjoy my job immensely, but worked my tail off to get here, work hard to excel at it, and damned well will fight to be compensated appropriately (hint... what we have now isn't it).

 

[relief tube]

Fitting that Airtran and Jetblue are mentioned in an article about this job sucking.

If them two hadn't have come along, we'd all be making 30% more and there'd be a hell of a lot less furloughs. That IS a fact.....bold and sounding like a jerk, but a fact.

"Liking the job" doesn't pay the bills and keep you fron getting furloughed at American while Airtran hires everyone who couldn't get a job a delta. $39 fares leading to crowded skies and lesser paychecks, non-union everything, $600 all-you-can-fly BS, and marketing that only focuses on how cheap ******************** is has killed QOL for us and killed the joy of flying in the back.

 

[Blue Dude]

Relief tube, here are two concepts that have nothing to do with JetBlue or AirTran: force majeure and chapter 11. Go look them up.

 

[HomerJ]

Tell him thanks for giving management another insight on how he might do this job for FREE, since he can watch the sunset and do a "coupled" approach holding his Captain's hand.


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, a question for you. If this article had featured a DL pilot, who said he or she liked drinking beer in Europe or sitting on the beach in South America as a perk of their job, would you still have made the same statement?

 

[DH106]

CapnVegetto, I understand and appreciate your willingness to defend your friend, as well as your right to enjoy your job.

But, to join the laundry list, here, General Lee is correct.

You've got to realize that there's a reason those rich bastards that you fly to the Caribbean are the people who have it all. They know how to negotiate for themselves. And, they know how to protect themselves through contracts. They have an "all-for-me, nothing-for-you" attitude. And, that's typical management in just about every mega-corporation today (with a few exceptions, such as SWA). Pilots should not have that mentality, but I'm stating that that's how management and the rich view it.

Why shouldn't pilots protect themselves? If a high-level executive can protect himself through his contract, why can't labor? And, why can't we demand a livable wage for flying that Beech 1900? The problem is that pilots haven't demanded decent wages and equal protection under the law.

And, the economy's not going to get better. We've entered the dreaded "L-shaped" economy. We're not going to spring back. The USA has lost its way. We no-longer have the essential manufacturing base which any successful country needs, and too many jobs have been outsourced to slave-labor/sweatshop operations overseas. In my opinion, we've got Clinton, Bush, and now Obama to thank for either causing the problem or failing to do anything to prevent it. And, they've enabled the rich to get richer, while the poor get poorer. Once that's done, it's all over. When the rich have all the money, that's exactly where it stays.

Every time we "smile" while seeing that beautiful sunrise among the clouds, try to keep in mind that that's not synonymous with having a secure, equitable future as a pilot. Until we achieve that, let's stop talking about the sunrises.

 

[StaySeated]

You know he didn't write the article, right? That the author and at least one editor took an axe to whatever he said in order to make their own points? Just thought I'd remind you of the obvious since you seem to need it.

That is exactly why pilots that have not received formal media training need to keep their mouths shut and stick to what they know, flying the plane.

Call up ALPA, ask for John Mazor, he is a pro's pro.

If you don't want to use ALPA you can hire any one of 100 consulting firms. Every pilot group needs to have at least one trained mouthpiece just in case the press calls.

I read the article again and it contains some pretty good perspective, unfortunately it is book-ended by a few "gee whiz" comments. The article was undoubtedly edited, but those comments were still made when they should not have been, in my humble opinion.

 

[CapnVegetto]

with these negotiating skills you are never going to be well compensated.

depends on what you consider to be 'well compensated.' sounds to me like you consider yourself to be worth a lot. Am i well compensated? Well, i have a house, car, plenty of money, food, clothing, golf membership, and enough savings to get through a year of not having a job. I think i'm pretty well compensated. You probably would disagree, but i live a damn good life.


clearly you are part of the problem as you don't value your skills. You have just told the world that you are not worth $200,000. Guess what? The world is going to oblige you and never offer you anywhere near that much money.

putting words into my mouth? Um......can you not f*cking read? At no point in my post did i ever say that nor imply it. This is pure crap made up by you in an attempt to make yourself look better.

​

considering that, according to you, consuming umbrella drinks and playing golf are the most challenging aspects to your employment i too would have endeavored to cut your salary or eliminate your employment.

wow......how clueless are you? I've got news for you, skippy......whether you want to admit it or not, flying an airplane is one of the easiest jobs in the world about 90% of the time. It's one of the hardest jobs in the world when the weather is bad or when something goes wrong. One of the biggest running jokes in the corporate world is "boy i'd love to turn around and negotiate a raise with my boss when we have an engine on fire." well guess what? If the boss wants an airplane, my job isn't going anywhere. The airplane doesn't fly itself. The bad news is that the company airplane is probably one of the most liquid assets they have, and it's always the first thing to go when times get bad.


aside from your anger issues i must point out that the pilot who earns $200,000 is not only rare but he or she may have only started to earn that figure late in their career progression. Unlike public employees who enjoy a gold plated pension and health plan the man in his late fifties who just got to $200,000 is self funding his retirement income and healthcare. Fyi the wall street journal recommends that those who retire with a decent healthcare plan should have $2 million set aside to cover gaps in their health care. Since you apparently think that $200,000/year is an outrageous salary i must point out that unless you start earning this amount around your 30th year it's going to be hard to finance your own retirement.

$200,000 a year, probably rare. I'll give you that. Most major airline captains make around that, along with a few corporate guys. But i say again, i've spent the last 7 years watching my father's retirement. At the tail end of his career he broke 6 figures. He'll never work another day in his life. I have another retired friend that has never broken 6 figures. He's set for life. How? Because they know how to live within their means and manage money, a concept lost on most of you people. You make it sound like a pilot makes $30,000 a year until they're 50, then all of a sudden make $200k. Wrong again scooter. Hell, even regional captains make a decent living. Major and legacy f/o's make a great living, with the exception of first year. Here's another fact: If you make a 6 figure salary, you are in the top 5% of incomes in this country. Stop bitching and learn how to manage what you have. Stop blowing your money on giant houses you don't need, ex wives, boats, sports cars, and stupid $hit and then piss and moan about your retirement. F*ck off. I have no sympathy for you. You are the problem, not me.



you just might be a tool.

hahahahahhaahahahahhahhahhahahahhahhahah!!!!

Let me translate this statement for all of those that are reading: "um....i have no valid argument for the points mentioned in the previous paragraph, so i'm going to resort to name calling!!!!!!! Poopoo head!!!!

Hahahahhahhahaha i'm still laughing.

I must be the bad guy here because i know how to financially plan. Oh my gawd!!!! Amazing. This guy might be the biggest moron in a sea of morons. All hail the king moron!!


no-one was talking $hit about your friend. They just happened to mention that his statements were at best unsophisticated and not well thought out.

I find this criticism to be accurate.

unsophisticated and not well thought out? Well here's another one for you. I like my job!!!! I love to fly airplanes!! Ok fine, crucify me because i like what i do for a living. I don't see porn stars getting crap from other porn stars because they say they like to f*ck. Hell, i'd be willing to bet they like to f*ck when they're not getting paid for it too! Oh my gawd!!! They're destroying the porn industry!!! We could be earning twice as much if we didn't actually like to f*ck and just put up with it for money!!!!

You see the parallels here? I'm sick and tired of people getting slammed on here for coming on and saying they are happy and like their jobs. Just f*cking shut the hell up. If someone goes in a newspaper article and makes a positive statement about what they do for a living and enjoying it, stop bashing them because you are miserable and stupid. Hell, go watch some porn. Maybe you'll feel better.

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[DH106]

That is exactly why pilots that have not received formal media training need to keep their mouths shut and stick to what they know, flying the plane.

Very well said. Which is the likely quote that you'd see in the news regarding a top-level executive somewhere?

(A) Executive, himself: "Well, I get paid $40 million per year regardless of my performance, because I can."

(B) Executive's lawyer or spokesperson: "Mr. Jones' compensation is not the issue at hand. We have no further comment."

Pilots should be no different. Do not talk to the media. Have the professionals do that. And, we don't mean Kit Darby.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I wasn't happy at the legacy carrier I was at before. Friends of mine who are still there aren't happy.

I'm happy with where I'm at now. thats not to say we don't have some issues...we all do. But compared to others....well, let me just say, I've worked for the "dark side" and I'm glad to flying where I am now.

I guess it all depends on where you work. I enjoy what I do...I'm much happier doing it where I do it now.