Accurate DAL/NWA update_re-post from street.com

[4got2flare]

War Damn Eagle!!!

Lived in ATL for most of my life. Really turned into a turd of a city in the past 10 years..... Love Auburn though! Guess you got to head to the state line......

 

[Redmeat]

I thought I heard that SEA is a very senior base at NWA. Most junior person there is a 96 hire from what I have heard (not confirmed).

GOD is on reserve in Seattle at NW.

 

[Capt. Caucasian]

War Damn Eagle!!!

Lived in ATL for most of my life. Really turned into a turd of a city in the past 10 years..... Love Auburn though! Guess you got to head to the state line......

War Eagle backacha!

Lived (and live) in ATL for most of my life as well. Still love it. Since leaving Auburn almost ten years ago I have lived all over the country and still think ATL is one of the best places on the planet.

If there is a better place I believe those are cities within two hours of ATL. Such as Birmingham, Auburn (have you seen the stuff down Moores Mill lately?), Chattanooga, and a little further south; Savannah.

Still contemplating a move to one of those. Still an easy drive to the parking lot.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lived in ATL for most of my life. Really turned into a turd of a city in the past 10 years.....

IMHO Atlanta has developed a good down town area, something it has never had before. In the past Atlanta would have never been a "vacation" city, but the Aquarium area is nice and we see a lot of concerts at Chastain, Lakewood and Piedmont park. Turner Stadium is one of the nation's best. The new Atlantic Station deveopment is a fun place too.

Atlanta suffered under Bill Campbell's administration. Shirley Franklin has cleaned up a lot and maybe even Clark Howard next. He's a big supporter of public transport & the World's busiest airport is in the city limits, good if you like connecting to the World.

 

[GogglesPisano]

All I want to know is .... will I be able to stay in JFK?

What are the odds?

 

[retired guy]

War Eagle backacha!
If there is a better place I believe those are cities within two hours of ATL. Such as Birmingham, Auburn (have you seen the stuff down Moores Mill lately?), Chattanooga, and a little further south; Savannah.

Still contemplating a move to one of those. Still an easy drive to the parking lot.

Savannah? an easy drive to the parking lot?
Well, War Eagle to you anyway!

 

[MJ42]

GOD is on reserve in Seattle at NW.

now that's funny!

 

[ultrarunner]

Let me get this straight...NWA wants an arbitrator to step in and integrate two pilot seniority lists between two airlines that management hasn't even said are talking??

Riiiiiiiight...

like that's gonna happen...

Of course you could call Nic have have him do it on the side, and see what he would do...

Then simply decide if you want to go with binding arbitration after the merger is announced....

THAT would be the way to get that ironed out in short order....and with no risk....

 

[FDJ2]

Arbitration's one big advantage is that the MEC is not responsible for their decision - the decision is made elsewhere.

Which is apparently why it's the preferred method at NWA. With arbitration you're not held accountable for the result, you can always blame the arbitrator.

 

[JohnQ]

Translation: Unless YOU have been sitting at the negotiating table YOU don't have a CLUE what the NWA reps are or are not doing with respect to their positions/duties. You should head over to Spondivits for a nice warm glass of STFU.

Well I haven't been at the neg table, but I have been informed pretty well at how it all went down.

Here is one for you: since 1986 there have been TWENTY-SIX separate arbitrator's rulings related to the NWA/Republic merger--not one was ever agreed to between the parties! And the NWA guys wear that record like a badge of honor. Talk about dysfunctional. An arbitration should be the exception, but unfortunately in the myopic world of airline pilots it is all too often the rule. We were trying to change the model and bring a big chunk of change and contractual improvements along for the ride...but the NWA guys didn't want that. Nor did we want to "hose" the NWA guys: our position on seniority was very rational and fair--no one got screwed. In fact most of the bitching on the DAL side would be about how WE would get the raw end of the deal. But since the 1986 merger has so permanently gouged the perception of most NWA guys (especially the older ones) no other reality other than hostile and unyielding positions that can only lead to arbitration can ever be envisioned or accepted.

That's too bad. I think this merger could have been a great success where "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" and would have led to an even better and more prosperous career for both pilot groups. But the NWA merger guys seem to personify the study that found that people would actually rather only be given $500,000 so long as no one else got more, rather than get $1 million when others got $2 million--paranoia at its purest.

But keep telling yourself that turning down an opportunity for significant contractual gains and even enhancing career expectations is somehow a good thing...if you do it long enough you may even start to believe it.

 

[Redmeat]

Well I haven't been at the neg table, but I have been informed pretty well at how it all went down.

Here is one for you: since 1986 there have been TWENTY-SIX separate arbitrator's rulings related to the NWA/Republic merger--not one was ever agreed to between the parties! And the NWA guys wear that record like a badge of honor. Talk about dysfunctional. An arbitration should be the exception, but unfortunately in the myopic world of airline pilots it is all too often the rule. We were trying to change the model and bring a big chunk of change and contractual improvements along for the ride...but the NWA guys didn't want that. Nor did we want to "hose" the NWA guys: our position on seniority was very rational and fair--no one got screwed. In fact most of the bitching on the DAL side would be about how WE would get the raw end of the deal. But since the 1986 merger has so permanently gouged the perception of most NWA guys (especially the older ones) no other reality other than hostile and unyielding positions that can only lead to arbitration can ever be envisioned or accepted.

That's too bad. I think this merger could have been a great success where "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" and would have led to an even better and more prosperous career for both pilot groups. But the NWA merger guys seem to personify the study that found that people would actually rather only be given $500,000 so long as no one else got more, rather than get $1 million when others got $2 million--paranoia at its purest.

But keep telling yourself that turning down an opportunity for significant contractual gains and even enhancing career expectations is somehow a good thing...if you do it long enough you may even start to believe it.

I knew the 400 club would fuk this thing up.

Welcome to (or not) dysfunctional Northwest Airlines, where we're not happy until you're not happy!

Word to management. If it still works penny wise fuk the pilot groups.

 

[9DRIVER]

I was bored so I looked this up.

Delta has 2949 retiring in the next 15 years.

Until you see the numbers some things are not what they appear. Mutual Funds do this all the time to create great performance numbers.

Here is the project retirements. As you can see when you use 15 years it looks like DAL has alot of retirements, but if you use 12 years the numbers change dramatically. Unless NWA gets credit for its retirements going forward its going to be tough to agree on a SLI.

Data from January 2008 Seniority Lists









Yearly Retirements Date



Total
NWA
Delta
Current List:




01/01/2009 99001/01/2010 88001/01/2011 1515001/01/2012 1515001/01/2013 2624201/01/2014 2081555301/01/2015 2411825901/01/2016 2741957901/01/2017 32121011101/01/2018 35022112901/01/2019 42025017001/01/2020 50128621501/01/2021 56027328701/01/2022 73831242601/01/2023 79228650601/01/2024 72625547101/01/2025 67922945001/01/2026 55520335201/01/2027 362121241

 

[andyd]

I knew the 400 club would fuk this thing up.

Welcome to (or not) dysfunctional Northwest Airlines, where we're not happy until you're not happy!

Word to management. If it still works penny wise fuk the pilot groups.

I sincerely hope this Turd gets flushed in the next week or so and we can get back to concentrating on moving forward, growing internally and international expansion. No disrespect to any NWA guy/gal out there but I am SOOOOO glad that your MEC screwed this up to the point that it's NOT going to happen. It would have been a biatch to take the second most (behind US East) miserably unhappy pilot/flight attendant/gate agent/mechanic work group on the planet and try and combine them with one of the most satisfied.

Kudo's to the NWA MEC, please keep up the good work! Demand a seniority and financial windfall, threaten lawsuits and arbitration, threaten descertification of ALPA, sick outs, "safe" operational slowdowns. Please do whatever you have too to keep this thing DOA!!!

 

[ExAF]

Give it a rest

What I don't get is that you think it is all that big a number. Here are the NWA retirements:

Year- Total/NWA/DAL
2009 - 9 9 0
2010 - 8 8 0
2011 - 15 15 0
2012 - 15 15 0
2013 - 26 24 2
2014 - 220 161 59
2015 - 253 187 66
2016 - 288 203 85
2017 - 338 214 124
2018 - 382 232 150
2019 - 465 259 206
2020 - 547 293 254
2021 - 602 285 317
2022 - 780 327 453
2023 - 830 298 532
2024 - 784 277 507
2025 - 751 257 494
2026 - 654 233 421
2027 - 513 173 340
2028 - 395 154 241
2029 - 326 138 188

Total NWA retirements - 3,762
Total DAL retirements - 4,469

So who has more retirements?

In the next ten years NWA plans to retire 1,068 pilots. Is that half the list?

In the next ten years Delta will retire 468 pilots, true that is half as many, but at year 12 Delta's retirements kick in and continue to exceed the NWA numbers.

15 years post merger:
DAL - 2248
NWA - 2530

But is that the end of the story? No.

How many pilots has Delta hired in 07 and how many are planning to come on board in 08? That number will be around 900 in 14 to 16 months of hiring. Most of these pilots went to widebodies. Which is more important - growth, or waiting for your Captain to expire?

Further, Delta is growing while the NWA fleet is shrinking. The 787's coming in 09 will certainly help, but in the mean time Delta could use pilots off the DC-9 to fly, or back fill for the dual crew 777's.

Do you have to post this on every thread on FI? I think you missed a couple in the MIL area.

 

[regionalcap]

Until you see the numbers some things are not what they appear. Mutual Funds do this all the time to create great performance numbers.

Here is the project retirements. As you can see when you use 15 years it looks like DAL has alot of retirements, but if you use 12 years the numbers change dramatically. Unless NWA gets credit for its retirements going forward its going to be tough to agree on a SLI.

Data from January 2008 Seniority Lists









Yearly Retirements Date



Total
NWA
Delta
Current List:




01/01/2009 99001/01/2010 88001/01/2011 1515001/01/2012 1515001/01/2013 2624201/01/2014 2081555301/01/2015 2411825901/01/2016 2741957901/01/2017 32121011101/01/2018 35022112901/01/2019 42025017001/01/2020 50128621501/01/2021 56027328701/01/2022 73831242601/01/2023 79228650601/01/2024 72625547101/01/2025 67922945001/01/2026 55520335201/01/2027 362121241

Just curious but where did you find those retirement numbers. I got mine from Deltanet which shows each year. The numbers for each year are fairly higher than what you posted. It is from the most recent seniority list.