Accurate DAL/NWA update_re-post from street.com

[DTW320]

Alright Nonstop,

How does this new Delta retirement number impact your situation?

Also, in the event that the merger does not happen, how will NWA Diesel 9 pilots be impacted by the withdrawl of the DC9 fleet? What aircraft will replace the 9s and how will that impact those pilots?

The NWA scope clause has been covered here plenty. You could look it up. Hint: It's better than DAL's. 68 110 - 125 seat DC9's aren't going anywhere anytime soon. If they do, then the NWA scope clause prevents that flying from being sent to 76 seat regionals. The DAL scope clause on the other hand would allow lots of that flying to go to the regionals with associated job loss. See why NWA pilots want a decent SLI?

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Would somone explain to me why management has to give two sh$ts about how the pilots will merge? Both are under contract; both are represented by ALPA; both have ALPA merger procedures and policies. This is a pilots issue with its union, not management.

Maybe both pilot groups should stop whining about whose fleet is better and start recognizing that ALPA National merger policies may need some work.

Direct your frustrations and fears the right way. Stop fighting amongst each other.

 

[DTW320]

Lets see do I want-
The same relative seniority I had
Relative Seniority? Is that the DALPA position at the table? You know this to be true?
Some sort of bonus now
We should sell our seniority for it?
Up to 50% raise
BS. Have heard max 30% over 4 years.
Better working conditions
Subjective and Debatable
Better scope
Now THAT's funny! How many 76 seaters can you guys have? How many can your regionals get for every mainline a/c? Does 3 times the amount allowed by NWA scope sound familiar? It should.
Better B fund
Many NWA guys are getting 20% B-fund due to our targeted plan. Agree it would be a good deal for our "high frozen DB amount" guys who are getting 0% at NWA.
Better career choices with 300% more widebodies
Agree, but how do we know NWA pilots would have access to them?
More retirements
We have a much older pilot group than DL

~ or ~

No contract enhancements and US Air style arbitration
That arbitration was heavily influenced by the fact that USAir was on the verge of liquidation. NWA aint. NWA financials are currently significantly better than DAL

I do not want the merger either, but I know which I'd choose in an instant.

Curious - why did the NWA pilots not want relative seniority?

Wait for the Facts from our respective MEC's

 

[JohnQ]

Arbitration's one big advantage is that the MEC is not responsible for their decision - the decision is made elsewhere.

Translation: "NWA representatives talk a good talk, but ultimately choose to renege on their duties, handing off the difficult decisions to a third party who they can then blame if he doesn't rule the way they wish."


Kind of like Robert Heinleins classic definition of a pacificist: "A shifty fellow who partakes of the benefits of society without being willing to pay--and then claims a halo for his dishonesty."

 

[DTW320]

Translation: "NWA representatives talk a good talk, but ultimately choose to renege on their duties, handing off the difficult decisions to a third party who they can then blame if he doesn't rule the way they wish."

Translation: Unless YOU have been sitting at the negotiating table YOU don't have a CLUE what the NWA reps are or are not doing with respect to their positions/duties. You should head over to Spondivits for a nice warm glass of STFU.

 

[Fly4hire]

Alright Nonstop,

How does this new Delta retirement number impact your situation?

Also, in the event that the merger does not happen, how will NWA Diesel 9 pilots be impacted by the withdrawl of the DC9 fleet? What aircraft will replace the 9s and how will that impact those pilots?

Most of the DC9's will be around for at least another 5 years - be it at DAL or NWA - and staffing has already been accounted for.

If they are parked sooner, the pilots will go where ever thier seniority will hold. If they park your DC9-88's will those pilots be without a job? Puhleeze

As far as ratio's, what part don't you get about our vastly greater number of retirements post merger? If you think you'll take the seniority from our retirements it's a non-starter.

A ratio that gives you a 25% plus seniority advantage in 5 yrs is meaningless, as is the pay raises and other enhancements.

I think myself and a lot of other NWA pilots would rather take our chances in arbitration without the contractual stuff than what DALPA has taken as their SLI position. See you in court.

Better yet, not at all. I can't wait to see you guys do a SLI with UAL.

As has been said before, if this deal dies it will due to DALPA's arrogance.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

OnYourSix:
The plan, as I understand it (2nd hand-only wishing I was at NWA) is to buy the Bombardier "C" aircraft to replace the -9s starting in 2012. Boeing wants NWA to buy their new 100-150-seat class aircraft, which won't be ready until after the Bombardier "C" comes out, so NWA would have to wait longer to get that aircraft.

The "C" was approved for production this week. It looks like a 737/Airbus/ERJ-195, and it has a P&W Geared Turbofan Engine, which has much better emissions, noise, and fuel burn than the best engines operating now.

I recently found out that some companies are trying to perfect an engine to compete with the Geared Turbofan Engine, that would have unducted, counter-rotating prop-fans. Noise is an issue on that engine.

cliff
YIP

 

[~~~^~~~]

As far as ratio's, what part don't you get about our vastly greater number of retirements post merger? If you think you'll take the seniority from our retirements it's a non-starter.

What I don't get is that you think it is all that big a number. Here are the NWA retirements:

Year- Total/NWA/DAL
2009 - 9 9 0
2010 - 8 8 0
2011 - 15 15 0
2012 - 15 15 0
2013 - 26 24 2
2014 - 220 161 59
2015 - 253 187 66
2016 - 288 203 85
2017 - 338 214 124
2018 - 382 232 150
2019 - 465 259 206
2020 - 547 293 254
2021 - 602 285 317
2022 - 780 327 453
2023 - 830 298 532
2024 - 784 277 507
2025 - 751 257 494
2026 - 654 233 421
2027 - 513 173 340
2028 - 395 154 241
2029 - 326 138 188

Total NWA retirements - 3,762
Total DAL retirements - 4,469

So who has more retirements?

In the next ten years NWA plans to retire 1,068 pilots. Is that half the list?

In the next ten years Delta will retire 468 pilots, true that is half as many, but at year 12 Delta's retirements kick in and continue to exceed the NWA numbers.

15 years post merger:
DAL - 2248
NWA - 2530

But is that the end of the story? No.

How many pilots has Delta hired in 07 and how many are planning to come on board in 08? That number will be around 900 in 14 to 16 months of hiring. Most of these pilots went to widebodies. Which is more important - growth, or waiting for your Captain to expire?

Further, Delta is growing while the NWA fleet is shrinking. The 787's coming in 09 will certainly help, but in the mean time Delta could use pilots off the DC-9 to fly, or back fill for the dual crew 777's.

 

[General Lee]

Most of the DC9's will be around for at least another 5 years - be it at DAL or NWA - and staffing has already been accounted for.

If they are parked sooner, the pilots will go where ever thier seniority will hold. If they park your DC9-88's will those pilots be without a job? Puhleeze

As far as ratio's, what part don't you get about our vastly greater number of retirements post merger? If you think you'll take the seniority from our retirements it's a non-starter.

A ratio that gives you a 25% plus seniority advantage in 5 yrs is meaningless, as is the pay raises and other enhancements.

I think myself and a lot of other NWA pilots would rather take our chances in arbitration without the contractual stuff than what DALPA has taken as their SLI position. See you in court.

Better yet, not at all. I can't wait to see you guys do a SLI with UAL.

As has been said before, if this deal dies it will due to DALPA's arrogance.

Come on now! Talk about arrogance. You stand to gain a double digit pay gain (to our modest gain), better work rules, better potential bases eventually, keep your pension, and get rid of Steenland. But NOOOOOOOOO. All we want is relative position, since we are bigger, have more pilots, more widebodies, have better bases, and have actual growth going on now (you do not---where are those 787s now? When will they arrive again??)

A few of your negotiators are playing hardball, and they will ruin it for you in the end. You will continue to need to wear your leather jackets all year round, and Steenland will be smiling from the office window, actually he is laughing....


And, do you think the DOJ would approve the number 2 and number 3 carriers combining? There was already an internal review done on a possible tie up with United, and it didn't pass scrutiny. And, if United decided to divest anyting to try to make it work, local politicians would shoot it down. Nah.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

 

[Sedona16]

Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

Lets be honest, SEA is SUPER SENIOR even for NWA guys so dont make it sound like this is really an option for very many guys at NWA either. Its a relatively small base now only hubbing A330's which is a very senior plane at NWA.

 

[800Dog]

Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

How big is the SEA base? I would put ATL, SLC and CVG ahead of MSP. Lived in ATL all my life and love it. Bases are very subjective. I would bet there are many more NWA pilots wanting DAL bases than the other way around.

 

[slinky]

Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

I will give you the SEA thing, I would like the hiking. But MSP? Dude, it is like really really cold there.

slinky

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Yeah, I do understand that it is sometimes cold in MSP. It IS all relative, however.

I lived for about 4 years in a cold place. We used to watch the weather channel every day and wished we lived in Fargo. Because Fargo was warmer.

I also knew a girl in Duluth. She said she was thinking about going to school (college) down South. Since I went to Auburn, I assumed she meant, well, down SOUTH. She meant MSP. As in, MSP was way south of Duluth. Freaky.

cliff
YIP

 

[johnsonrod]

Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

I thought I heard that SEA is a very senior base at NWA. Most junior person there is a 96 hire from what I have heard (not confirmed).