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Accurate DAL/NWA update_re-post from street.com

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Someone else should get credit for this article, but it was too good an update not to share....

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- The proposed merger between DeltaDALand Northwest NWA faces a potential collapse, sources say, for an unusual reason -- Northwest's pilots want to arbitrate seniority.

Delta pilots oppose arbitration, which was shown in the 2005 merger between US Airways and America West to be an unreliable method to protect pilots from severe career disruptions.

In the effort to merge Delta and Northwest, "there is a solution still to be had," said a person familiar with the situation. "The door is still open, but not forever. If Delta passes its time line, it will just move on." The window of opportunity is a couple of weeks, the person said.

Delta executives, in a memo to employees late Tuesday, declared that they haven't been able to put together a satisfactory merger agreement.

"To date, we have not arrived at a potential transaction that meets all of our principles," the memo, signed by CEO Richard Anderson and President Ed Bastion, read. "Rest assured that we will not complete a transaction unless all of these conditions are met. We have a strong stand-alone plan. We will maintain our attention on executing that plan while we continue to look at strategic alternatives."

The memo listed five requirements "that have to be met if there were to be consolidation with another airline." Among them is this: "That the seniority of our people is protected."

Additionally, they executives will require any combined airline to be called Delta and headquartered in Atlanta, that employee and retiree pension plans are maintained, "that the network is strengthened and our plans for international expansion are accelerated," and that "that there is even greater job security along with more career opportunities for our people."

The memo didn't mention Northwest or any other airline by name. In fact, Delta has never formally acknowledged that it is talking with Northwest, although the talks have been widely reported.

Before entering intense merger discussions with Northwest, Delta spoke with UAL'sUAUA United and withContinentalCAL, sources say.

When the Northwest deal began to fall into place, the two carriers sought to secure a pilot agreement in advance of their proposed merger, partially due to the close relationship between Delta and its pilots and partly due to a desire to avoid the pitfalls of the merger at US Airways.

There, seniority integration went to arbitration, and the arbitrator ruled that hundreds of pilots with 15 or more years at the former US Airways should be junior to pilots with just a few years at America West. The ruling led to a bitter dispute that now has pilots preparing to vote next month on whether to oust the Air Line Pilots Association as their representative.

In the Delta and Northwest pilot seniority integration effort, the principal problem is that many Delta pilots are younger, with fewer years of service than many Northwest pilots, yet have higher relative seniority due to attrition at the Atlanta-based carrier.

Also, while Delta pilots have a single leadership group, Northwest pilots have two -- the chapter leadership and a merger committee. It's unclear whether the two groups are in full agreement. They concurred on a package that includes pay increases for all pilots, but the merger committee wants an arbitrator to resolve seniority issues.

ALPA merger policy offers little assurance that seniority will be protected in arbitration, says aviation labor law attorney Lee Seham. He represents the US Airline Pilots Association, which is seeking to replace ALPA at US Airways.

In the US Airways pilot seniority hearing, the attorney for the America West pilots argued that seniority had been eliminated from ALPA merger policy in 1991 and therefore should not be considered. That argument appears to have strongly influenced the arbitrator's ruling, he says.


"In ALPA merger policy, seniority suffers from a negative legislative history, because if a seniority integration factor that was [once] recognized is later excised from the policy, that sends a loud message to the arbitrator," Seham says, adding that Northwest pilots "[should] not relegate their members to a crapshoot."

The arbitrator also took the position that US Airways, operating under bankruptcy protection, was in imminent danger of collapse. That wouldn't be a factor in Delta and Northwest arbitration.

The market has shown concern about Delta and Northwest since pilots failed to reach a deal over the weekend. On Monday, the Amex Airline Index rose slightly, but shares in Northwest lost 2.8%, while Delta fell 1.5%, partially reflecting investor doubts about the likelihood of a merger. All three declined on Tuesday.

"This is definitely working at its own pace," says William Swelbar, a researcher at MIT's International Center for Air Transportation. "But in the end, I am going to be surprised if Northwest pilots stand in the way of a deal."

----

Arbitration? What? Why? That seems like a really odd choice under the circumstances.
 
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Very interesting......


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
NWA pilots have been arbitrating everything but breathing for the last 20 years and are experts at it. Thus feel an arbitration is in there best interest if the proposals are not to their liking. Plus its their right under ALPA policy. This isn't TWA.
 
Quite true, My guess is that they are all bluffing and they will let us go to arbitration.
They know that either way they will get someone to fly the aircraft. It may not be pretty, but it will be done.
 
Thank you for your reply why NWA pilots would want arbitration.

I do not think arbitration is on the table. In fact, there may not be anyone sitting at the table any more.

The NWA pilots may be arbitration "experts" but arbitration isn't the forum where you go expecting a "hail Mary" pass. Arbitrators mostly looks at career expectations, current equipment and pay.

Arbitration's one big advantage is that the MEC is not responsible for their decision - the decision is made elsewhere.
 
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Sorry, but these Northwest pilots sound like a bunch of babies... Mommy will decide for us... Guess what, it didn't work for USAirways/AWA. Do you want a repeat of that situation? Perhaps you could learn from history and structure an agreement yourself - it's called a negotiation.
 
If there is indeed a merger arbitration is always on the table.

Old fashioned thinking gets old fashioned results.

There was a lot of money left on the table. Money for reaching an agreement, which the parties failed to do. You think that money is still on the table?

Lets see do I want-
The same relative seniority I had
Some sort of bonus now
Up to 50% raise
Better working conditions
Better scope
Better B fund
Better career choices with 300% more widebodies
More retirements

~ or ~

No contract enhancements and US Air style arbitration

I do not want the merger either, but I know which I'd choose in an instant.

Curious - why did the NWA pilots not want relative seniority?
 
Curious - why did the NWA pilots not want relative seniority?

Because their seniority is not for sale. They see the bigger picture.
 
Sure we'll take relative seniority as long as it's examined over the span of a career and not a snapshot of today.

5000 NWA pilots, 2500 retiring in 10-15 years.

7000 DAL pilots, 1000 retiring in 10-15 years.

Growth is speculative, retirements are not. Regardless DAL would have to grow by about 5000 pilots for a DAL new hire to see the same seniority progression as a NWA new hire even if NWA has 0 growth.
 
Sure we'll take relative seniority as long as it's examined over the span of a career and not a snapshot of today.

5000 NWA pilots, 2500 retiring in 10-15 years.

7000 DAL pilots, 1000 retiring in 10-15 years.

Growth is speculative, retirements are not. Regardless DAL would have to grow by about 5000 pilots for a DAL new hire to see the same seniority progression as a NWA new hire even if NWA has 0 growth.

Ok. What would the DC-9 pilots fly when that fleet is divested? E175s? A319s? How would that fleet's departure from the mix impact career progression for those specific pilots? What is the plan for the DC9 replacement and those pilots in the short term?
 
Sure we'll take relative seniority as long as it's examined over the span of a career and not a snapshot of today.

5000 NWA pilots, 2500 retiring in 10-15 years.

7000 DAL pilots, 1000 retiring in 10-15 years.

Growth is speculative, retirements are not. Regardless DAL would have to grow by about 5000 pilots for a DAL new hire to see the same seniority progression as a NWA new hire even if NWA has 0 growth.
Those numbers are not correct. Delta has more retirements.
 
I was bored so I looked this up.

Delta has 2949 retiring in the next 15 years.

Alright Nonstop,

How does this new Delta retirement number impact your situation?

Also, in the event that the merger does not happen, how will NWA Diesel 9 pilots be impacted by the withdrawl of the DC9 fleet? What aircraft will replace the 9s and how will that impact those pilots?
 
Alright Nonstop,

How does this new Delta retirement number impact your situation?

Also, in the event that the merger does not happen, how will NWA Diesel 9 pilots be impacted by the withdrawl of the DC9 fleet? What aircraft will replace the 9s and how will that impact those pilots?
The NWA scope clause has been covered here plenty. You could look it up. Hint: It's better than DAL's. 68 110 - 125 seat DC9's aren't going anywhere anytime soon. If they do, then the NWA scope clause prevents that flying from being sent to 76 seat regionals. The DAL scope clause on the other hand would allow lots of that flying to go to the regionals with associated job loss. See why NWA pilots want a decent SLI?
 
Would somone explain to me why management has to give two sh$ts about how the pilots will merge? Both are under contract; both are represented by ALPA; both have ALPA merger procedures and policies. This is a pilots issue with its union, not management.

Maybe both pilot groups should stop whining about whose fleet is better and start recognizing that ALPA National merger policies may need some work.

Direct your frustrations and fears the right way. Stop fighting amongst each other.
 
Lets see do I want-
The same relative seniority I had
Relative Seniority? Is that the DALPA position at the table? You know this to be true?
Some sort of bonus now
We should sell our seniority for it?
Up to 50% raise
BS. Have heard max 30% over 4 years.
Better working conditions
Subjective and Debatable
Better scope
Now THAT's funny! How many 76 seaters can you guys have? How many can your regionals get for every mainline a/c? Does 3 times the amount allowed by NWA scope sound familiar? It should.
Better B fund
Many NWA guys are getting 20% B-fund due to our targeted plan. Agree it would be a good deal for our "high frozen DB amount" guys who are getting 0% at NWA.
Better career choices with 300% more widebodies
Agree, but how do we know NWA pilots would have access to them?
More retirements
We have a much older pilot group than DL

~ or ~

No contract enhancements and US Air style arbitration
That arbitration was heavily influenced by the fact that USAir was on the verge of liquidation. NWA aint. NWA financials are currently significantly better than DAL

I do not want the merger either, but I know which I'd choose in an instant.

Curious - why did the NWA pilots not want relative seniority?
Wait for the Facts from our respective MEC's
 
Arbitration's one big advantage is that the MEC is not responsible for their decision - the decision is made elsewhere.

Translation: "NWA representatives talk a good talk, but ultimately choose to renege on their duties, handing off the difficult decisions to a third party who they can then blame if he doesn't rule the way they wish."


Kind of like Robert Heinleins classic definition of a pacificist: "A shifty fellow who partakes of the benefits of society without being willing to pay--and then claims a halo for his dishonesty."
 
Translation: "NWA representatives talk a good talk, but ultimately choose to renege on their duties, handing off the difficult decisions to a third party who they can then blame if he doesn't rule the way they wish."
Translation: Unless YOU have been sitting at the negotiating table YOU don't have a CLUE what the NWA reps are or are not doing with respect to their positions/duties. You should head over to Spondivits for a nice warm glass of STFU.
 
Alright Nonstop,

How does this new Delta retirement number impact your situation?

Also, in the event that the merger does not happen, how will NWA Diesel 9 pilots be impacted by the withdrawl of the DC9 fleet? What aircraft will replace the 9s and how will that impact those pilots?

Most of the DC9's will be around for at least another 5 years - be it at DAL or NWA - and staffing has already been accounted for.

If they are parked sooner, the pilots will go where ever thier seniority will hold. If they park your DC9-88's will those pilots be without a job? Puhleeze

As far as ratio's, what part don't you get about our vastly greater number of retirements post merger? If you think you'll take the seniority from our retirements it's a non-starter.

A ratio that gives you a 25% plus seniority advantage in 5 yrs is meaningless, as is the pay raises and other enhancements.

I think myself and a lot of other NWA pilots would rather take our chances in arbitration without the contractual stuff than what DALPA has taken as their SLI position. See you in court.

Better yet, not at all. I can't wait to see you guys do a SLI with UAL.

As has been said before, if this deal dies it will due to DALPA's arrogance.
 
Hi!

OnYourSix:
The plan, as I understand it (2nd hand-only wishing I was at NWA) is to buy the Bombardier "C" aircraft to replace the -9s starting in 2012. Boeing wants NWA to buy their new 100-150-seat class aircraft, which won't be ready until after the Bombardier "C" comes out, so NWA would have to wait longer to get that aircraft.

The "C" was approved for production this week. It looks like a 737/Airbus/ERJ-195, and it has a P&W Geared Turbofan Engine, which has much better emissions, noise, and fuel burn than the best engines operating now.

I recently found out that some companies are trying to perfect an engine to compete with the Geared Turbofan Engine, that would have unducted, counter-rotating prop-fans. Noise is an issue on that engine.

cliff
YIP
 
As far as ratio's, what part don't you get about our vastly greater number of retirements post merger? If you think you'll take the seniority from our retirements it's a non-starter.
What I don't get is that you think it is all that big a number. Here are the NWA retirements:

Year- Total/NWA/DAL
2009 - 9 9 0
2010 - 8 8 0
2011 - 15 15 0
2012 - 15 15 0
2013 - 26 24 2
2014 - 220 161 59
2015 - 253 187 66
2016 - 288 203 85
2017 - 338 214 124
2018 - 382 232 150
2019 - 465 259 206
2020 - 547 293 254
2021 - 602 285 317
2022 - 780 327 453
2023 - 830 298 532
2024 - 784 277 507
2025 - 751 257 494
2026 - 654 233 421
2027 - 513 173 340
2028 - 395 154 241
2029 - 326 138 188

Total NWA retirements - 3,762
Total DAL retirements - 4,469

So who has more retirements?

In the next ten years NWA plans to retire 1,068 pilots. Is that half the list?

In the next ten years Delta will retire 468 pilots, true that is half as many, but at year 12 Delta's retirements kick in and continue to exceed the NWA numbers.

15 years post merger:
DAL - 2248
NWA - 2530

But is that the end of the story? No.

How many pilots has Delta hired in 07 and how many are planning to come on board in 08? That number will be around 900 in 14 to 16 months of hiring. Most of these pilots went to widebodies. Which is more important - growth, or waiting for your Captain to expire?

Further, Delta is growing while the NWA fleet is shrinking. The 787's coming in 09 will certainly help, but in the mean time Delta could use pilots off the DC-9 to fly, or back fill for the dual crew 777's.
 
Most of the DC9's will be around for at least another 5 years - be it at DAL or NWA - and staffing has already been accounted for.

If they are parked sooner, the pilots will go where ever thier seniority will hold. If they park your DC9-88's will those pilots be without a job? Puhleeze

As far as ratio's, what part don't you get about our vastly greater number of retirements post merger? If you think you'll take the seniority from our retirements it's a non-starter.

A ratio that gives you a 25% plus seniority advantage in 5 yrs is meaningless, as is the pay raises and other enhancements.

I think myself and a lot of other NWA pilots would rather take our chances in arbitration without the contractual stuff than what DALPA has taken as their SLI position. See you in court.

Better yet, not at all. I can't wait to see you guys do a SLI with UAL.

As has been said before, if this deal dies it will due to DALPA's arrogance.

Come on now! Talk about arrogance. You stand to gain a double digit pay gain (to our modest gain), better work rules, better potential bases eventually, keep your pension, and get rid of Steenland. But NOOOOOOOOO. All we want is relative position, since we are bigger, have more pilots, more widebodies, have better bases, and have actual growth going on now (you do not---where are those 787s now? When will they arrive again??)

A few of your negotiators are playing hardball, and they will ruin it for you in the end. You will continue to need to wear your leather jackets all year round, and Steenland will be smiling from the office window, actually he is laughing....


And, do you think the DOJ would approve the number 2 and number 3 carriers combining? There was already an internal review done on a possible tie up with United, and it didn't pass scrutiny. And, if United decided to divest anyting to try to make it work, local politicians would shoot it down. Nah.....


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP
 
Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

Lets be honest, SEA is SUPER SENIOR even for NWA guys so dont make it sound like this is really an option for very many guys at NWA either. Its a relatively small base now only hubbing A330's which is a very senior plane at NWA.
 
Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

How big is the SEA base? I would put ATL, SLC and CVG ahead of MSP. Lived in ATL all my life and love it. Bases are very subjective. I would bet there are many more NWA pilots wanting DAL bases than the other way around.
 
Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

I will give you the SEA thing, I would like the hiking. But MSP? Dude, it is like really really cold there.

slinky
 
Hi!

Yeah, I do understand that it is sometimes cold in MSP. It IS all relative, however.

I lived for about 4 years in a cold place. We used to watch the weather channel every day and wished we lived in Fargo. Because Fargo was warmer.

I also knew a girl in Duluth. She said she was thinking about going to school (college) down South. Since I went to Auburn, I assumed she meant, well, down SOUTH. She meant MSP. As in, MSP was way south of Duluth. Freaky.

cliff
YIP
 
Hi!

DAL has better bases?

SEA is the best base in the NWA/DAL system, and MSP is #2.

ATL USED to be a great city to live in (never as good as the two above), but then they let sprawl and traffic get out of control, without a good rail system in place. They do HAVE some light rail, which IS good, but it's not enough.

If I lived in ATL as a DAL guy, I'd hope to get to SEA or MSP immediately-probably wouldn't happen.

cliff
YIP

I thought I heard that SEA is a very senior base at NWA. Most junior person there is a 96 hire from what I have heard (not confirmed).
 

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