ABC Investigates lack of pilot sleep

[pilotyip]

can not be answered

Answer my question. Oh yeah, good typical management response.

Your question was like do you still beat your wife? If I answer YES I am anti-safety. If I answer NO I am anti-airline staying in business to provide you with a job. It the end is not management driving this; it is management’s response to an informed consumer demand.

 

[SLUF4]

It's easy to answer. Obviously you feel that airlines make money at 100% load factor (even though they're still losing millions and the planes are packed) and raising prices would bump so much load they would not make any money. You also believe that the current rest regulations are appropriate and changing them would cost jobs.

 

[ualdriver]

Your question was like do you still beat your wife? If I answer YES I am anti-safety. If I answer NO I am anti-airline staying in business to provide you with a job. It the end is not management driving this; it is management’s response to an informed consumer demand.

Pilotyip-

You're coming across like JoeMerchant is. Look at some of JoeMerchant's arguments, although I hate to even bring them up again. He's a senior captain at a union airline making six figures and certainly flying cherry schedules. He's effectively insulated from the poorly written FARs through his union and seniority. He's more concerned about losing days off than he is how the guys at the bottom of his seniority list and the pilots at other airlines are being treated and abused by the industry through poorly written FARs concerning rest.

Then you come along and tell us all how rewriting the regulations are going to cost jobs. You're seem more concerned about airline economics and getting your wife cheap tickets to ABQ than you are about fixing the regs. You and I both know that the minimum rest and duty requirements provided by the FARs ARE INADEQUATE. In the past, our unions largely protected us from the inadequacies of the FARs. Now that market forces have driven us down to LCC/FAR minimums, something has to give. To argue that, well, making the FARs more realistic are going to cost jobs is at best a tertiary concern. I'm working at a financially shaky airline and I'm perfectly happy to take the "risk" that a change in regulations, for the better, will harm my airline.

My statement to both of you is BRING ON THE CHANGE, despite the prospects (overblown IMO) of "unintneded consequences."

 

[pilotyip]

I agree, bring it on

Pilotyip-

My statement to both of you is BRING ON THE CHANGE, despite the prospects (overblown IMO) of "unintneded consequences."

I agree bring it on, But I ask what is the limit of ultimate crew rest? Everyone only works when they feel rested; they can call fatigue at any stop during a trip, and refuse any assignment because they are not rested? How about no flying between 2200 and 0800, make it against the law? How about those 16 hour int'l flights? Will there now be stops and crew changes at BIRK? Followed by a RO2N to be fully rested for that last leg into Europe. I have no dog in this flight, but "unintended consequences" may have devastating effects on the industry.

 

[ualdriver]

I agree bring it on, But I ask what is the limit of ultimate crew rest? Everyone only works when they feel rested; they can call fatigue at any stop during a trip, and refuse any assignment because they are not rested? How about no flying between 2200 and 0800, make it against the law? How about those 16 hour int'l flights? Will there now be stops and crew changes at BIRK? Followed by a RO2N to be fully rested for that last leg into Europe. I have no dog in this flight, but "unintended consequences" may have devastating effects on the industry.

I doubt the rest rules are going to be so onerous that any flying after 10pm is going to be outlawed. And yeah, if a guy is too tired to fly for any reason at any time, he shouldn't be flying. However, you and I were both freight guys flying back of the clock during portions of our careers, and we adjusted our lives accordingly. Howver I can definitely say without hesitation that I was abused and the FARs did nothing to protect me. I don't think the FAA, the unions, or anyone else is going to say that flying is unsafe.

Concerning international flights, although I only have a few hundred hours of experience and less than a year in that area, we have a 3rd or 4th pilot with designated pilot rest areas during breaks (including bunks, sound suppressing and darkening curtains, and/or lay flat seats) to help mitigate the effects of fatigue. I think domestic and international flying need to be handled differently.

So what's the limit of ultimate crew rest? I don't know, but we need something better than we have now. Whatever it ends up being, it's going to be a fuzzy, squiggly line no matter what the FAA (with ALPA input) decides to do because I think when we're talking about what is fatiguing and what isn't, the interpretation is extremely subjective as you point out.

 

[pilotyip]

European rules

I doubt the rest rules are going to be so onerous that any flying after 10pm is going to be outlawed. And yeah, if a guy is too tired to fly for any reason at any time, he shouldn't be flying. However, you and I were both freight guys flying back of the clock during portions of our careers, and we adjusted our lives accordingly. Howver I can definitely say without hesitation that I was abused and the FARs did nothing to protect me. I don't think the FAA, the unions, or anyone else is going to say that flying is unsafe.

Concerning international flights, although I only have a few hundred hours of experience and less than a year in that area, we have a 3rd or 4th pilot with designated pilot rest areas during breaks (including bunks, sound suppressing and darkening curtains, and/or lay flat seats) to help mitigate the effects of fatigue. I think domestic and international flying need to be handled differently.

So what's the limit of ultimate crew rest? I don't know, but we need something better than we have now. Whatever it ends up being, it's going to be a fuzzy, squiggly line no matter what the FAA (with ALPA input) decides to do because I think when we're talking about what is fatiguing and what isn't, the interpretation is extremely subjective as you point out.

Zantop flew under the European rules on a contract in England, the European rest rules were much different when you flew at night you had limited duty and additional rest. The flights could have done under one flight crew using the US rules, but we had to have two crews and flew every other night.