ABC Investigates lack of pilot sleep

[Northern Lights]

http://kstp.com/news/stories/S1041636.shtml?cat=1

The wonderful MCW/FOD highspeed is highlighted. I know of FAs that bid that one all month so they can get home before the kids leave for school (schedualed arrival time in MSP is 6:30am, and it is often early).

If you can operate on 3 hours of sleep, it's great, but I'm of the camp that would like to do just a few CDOs per month.

 

[pilotyip]

All of the solutions offered here reduce A/C productivity with present crews, thereby reducing efficiency resulting in cutting costs, read wages, to stay profitable. Or have the same crews give up days off to work less each day, or hire more pilots and spread the present total pilot compensation amongst more pilots in order to remain profitable. How many pilots want these solutions? BTW Am I reading this wrong, but is there any realization of how almost every passenger airline is only marginally profitable. Adding any costs or additional inefficiencies to an operation can destroy the operation.

 

[SLUF4]

How will it destroy the operation? Do you really think people are going to just stop flying totally? I don't. Sure, we would lose a little load, but a plane can be profitable with 1 passenger if you charge enough money and the ticket is sold. Flying is not something that has to be affordable to every American. The price should reflect proper maintenance, crew costs, fuel, etc... If another airline can do it cheaper and make money-that's capitalism at work. Remember Skybus and their $9 fares? It didn't work.

 

[sweptback]

Correction: The position has been that more than 3 CDOs in a row were unsafe. CDO lines were going fairly Senior before the rig in this contract. Check your facts.

I wasn't talking about the MEC position, I was talking about the crewroom banter on the line.

And CDOs have gone much, much more senior since the contract. I used to be able to hold a CDO line -- not anymore.

 

[pilotyip]

Higher prices ='s less Pax

How will it destroy the operation? Do you really think people are going to just stop flying totally? I don't. Sure, we would lose a little load, but a plane can be profitable with 1 passenger if you charge enough money and the ticket is sold. Flying is not something that has to be affordable to every American. The price should reflect proper maintenance, crew costs, fuel, etc... If another airline can do it cheaper and make money-that's capitalism at work. Remember Skybus and their $9 fares? It didn't work.

Less pax ='s fewer pilots. Adam Smith figured it out in 1780. Supply and demand, you raise the price of an item, you have less demand. The airlines live on filling that would be empty seat with a person willing to pay $9, $25, $29, $49 or $99. You want go back to regulation, would that be OK?

 

[SLUF4]

So you think we should just give seats away to fill them and have thousands of packed planes in the sky not making money with fatigued pilots at the controls? Is that better?

 

[ualdriver]

Less pax ='s fewer pilots. Adam Smith figured it out in 1780. Supply and demand, you raise the price of an item, you have less demand. The airlines live on filling that would be empty seat with a person willing to pay $9, $25, $29, $49 or $99. You want go back to regulation, would that be OK?

Rest rules are currently BROKEN pilotyip. The protections they provide pilots are currently INADEQUATE, period. If the new rules raise the price of tickets and/or cause the average pilot to have "less days off" at home (both of which I think will be minimally impacted IMO), then sobeit. Basically your arguments are that a revision of rest rules are going to increase airline costs and therefore cause less demand and therefore cost jobs, correct? If that's the case, I'll take that choice rather than have a jet crash into my house with two tired pilots at the controls who didn't notice the airspeed bleeding off or an authothrottle disconnecting, for example, than a loss of a few jobs.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

All of the solutions offered here reduce A/C productivity with present crews, thereby reducing efficiency resulting in cutting costs, read wages, to stay profitable. Or have the same crews give up days off to work less each day, or hire more pilots and spread the present total pilot compensation amongst more pilots in order to remain profitable. How many pilots want these solutions? BTW Am I reading this wrong, but is there any realization of how almost every passenger airline is only marginally profitable. Adding any costs or additional inefficiencies to an operation can destroy the operation.

So, are you suggesting that you are ok with the current situation with regard to pilot rest and fatigue?

 

[SLUF4]

This has been on the NTSB's recommendation list for years-how many more people must die until people understand that a change is needed? I don't care if my load factor is 70% if it makes flying many times safer. As far as days off; the contract spells out the minimum days off we get-if you think that's inadequate then we should negotiate for more days off. I'd rather increase my chances of actually making it to my days off by ensuring that I'm fit to fly.

 

[Nevets]

As far as days off; the contract spells out the minimum days off we get-if you think that's inadequate then we should negotiate for more days off.

Yes, unionized pilot groups can stop using negotiating capital to decrease duty limits and use it to increase days off instead.

 

[Skywest Pylot]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]What do you think Yip, should we go ahead and drop the 8hr and .04 rules as well?[/FONT]
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]http://cf.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/backgr/fatigue_performance_impairment_1997.html

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Fatigue, Alcohol and Performance Impairment
Nature, Volume 388, July-August 1997​

Reduced opportunity for sleep and reduced sleep quality are frequently related to accidents involving shift-workers1-3. Poor-quality sleep and inadequate recovery leads to increased fatigue, decreased alertness and impaired performance in a variety of cognitive psychomotor tests4. However, the risks associated with fatigue are not well quantified. Here we equate the performance impairment caused by fatigue with that due to alcohol intoxication, and show that moderate levels of fatigue produce higher levels of impairment than the proscribed level of alcohol intoxication.
Forty subjects participated in two counterbalanced experiments. In one they were kept awake for 28 hours (from 8:00 until 12:00 the following day), and in the other they were asked to consume 10-15g alcohol at 30-min intervals from 8:00 until their mean blood alcohol concentration reached 0.10%. We measured cognitive psychomotor performance at half-hourly intervals using a computer-administered test of hand-eye coordination (an unpredictable tracking task). Results are expressed as a percentage of performance at the start of the session.
Performance decreased significantly in both conditions. Between the tenth and twenty-sixth hours of wakefulness, mean relative performance on the tracking task decreased by 0.74% per hour. Regression analysis in the sustained wakefulness condition revealed a linear correlation between mean relative performance and hours of wakefulness that accounted for roughly 90% of the variance (Fig. 1a).
Regression analysis in the alcohol condition indicated a significant linear correlation between subject’s mean blood alcohol concentration and mean relative performance that accounted for roughly 70% of the variance (Fig. 1b). For each 0.01% increase in blood alcohol, performance decreased by 1.16%. Thus, at a mean blood alcohol concentration of 0.10%, mean relative performance on the tracking task decreased, on average by 11.6%.
Equating the two rates at which performance declined (percentage decline per hour of wakefulness and percentage decline with change in blood alcohol concentration), we calculated that the performance decrement for each hour of wakefulness between 10 and 26 hours was equivalent to the performance decrement observed with a 0.004% rise in blood alcohol concentration. Therefore, after 17 hours of sustained wakefulness (3:00) cognitive psychomotor performance decreased to a level equivalent to the performance impairment observed at a blood alcohol concentration of 0.05%. This is the proscribed level of alcohol intoxication in many western industrialized countries. After 24 hours of sustained wakefulness (8:00) cognitive psychomotor performance decreased to a level equivalent to the performance deficit observed at a blood alcohol concentration of roughly 0.10%.
Plotting mean relative performance and blood alcohol concentration ‘equivalent’ against hours of wakefulness (Fig. 2), it is clear that the effects of moderate sleep loss on performance are similar to moderate alcohol intoxication. As about 50% of shift-workers do not sleep on the day before the first night-shift5, and levels of fatigue on subsequent night-shifts can be even higher6, our data indicate that the performance impairment associated with shift-work could be even greater than reported here.
Our results underscore the fact that relatively moderate levels of fatigue impair performance to an extent equivalent to or greater than is currently acceptable for alcohol intoxication. By expressing fatigue-related impairment as a ‘blood-alcohol equivalent’, we can provide policy-makers and the community with an easily grasped index of the relative impairment associated with fatigue.
[Note: Retyped. Endnotes and Figures 1, 1a and 2 referenced in the article are illegible and have been omitted.]
[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Drew Dawson
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]The Centre for Sleep Research
The Queen Elizabeth Hospital
Woodville, 5011 South Australia
e-mail: [email protected][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Kathryn Reid
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology
The Queen Elizabeth Hospital
Woodville, 5011 South Australia[/FONT]

 

[ThisistheDream]

CDO are fine the pilots just has to get there rest. Most CDO give you 12 plus hours of rest between report times/ There are many safety related jobs that require 3rd shift hours..At Comair the company would pay for the hotel for commuters that would do CDO back to back..

 

[pilotyip]

Airline Economics?

So you think we should just give seats away to fill them and have thousands of packed planes in the sky not making money with fatigued pilots at the controls? Is that better?

How much have you studied yield management? How much experience do you have in airline economics? Do some research, find out how airlines make money to stay in business and allow you to progress in your career, it is really interesting stuff. This avoids operating in a vacuum. As stated before if you have all the answers it is tour duty to come over to the management side and make things better.

 

[SLUF4]

Answer my question. Oh yeah, good typical management response.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Folks,

Tired is tired and there are many ways to get there; CDO, 4 day, three day, commuting, whatever.

Let's just remember, none of the issues discussed on this board have anything to do with Colgan's accident. The fatigue, rest, and pay-related-commuting issues were all directly related to personal choices made by the pilots.

Even if the FEDS limited our duty day to 8 hours, those pilots would be in the exact same position, fatigue wise.

Personal responsibility has been long missed from our culture. Professional responsibility seems to be an endangered species.

Well said!

Crew experience is a larger safety issue....