AA to recall

[satpak77]

2015 is the year folks

Beagle does have some points. The MD-80 fleet, discussed in this article , average age now is 20 years old, meaning the average year of entry into the fleet was 1990. Accompanying hiring boom ensued, and assuming Kit Darbys perfect profile new hire age of 28 years old, those guys are mandatory in 2027.

So we know, outside of anything else (fuel prices, Gulf War-4, etc etc crystal ball), that:

1. The "1990 gang" is mandatory, bye bye, no questions asked in 2027, if the entire group was hired at age 28. If hired at age 30 to 35, now we are seeing mandatories in 2020-2025, or ten years out folks, from TODAY. If the 10 pilot per plane statement is correct, we are talking what? 2500+ pilots? All mandatory, and all at once?

2. The MD-80 fleet, AA's bread and butter domestic and sometimes international (DFW-MEX) people hauler, will be 30 years old at the same time the "1990 gang" is gone. What will happen in ten years (crystal ball stuff). Fuel? AD's ? FAA imposed restrictions on the plane (Noise, etc.) Will the 737 fully replace the MD-80 one for one?

3. What is the average age of the furloughed group? This too will play into hiring and fleet expansion.

My thought as an outsider is five years from now, 2015 (not that far off), AA HQ management is gonna have some fleet/hiring planning to do.

** Assuming they need to fill 3000 slots, how many interviews must occur to vet and interview candidates and put good candidates in class? 6000 actual interviews? That is 1 guy hired for every 2 interviews. What was Southwest in the past? Like 3 guys hired for every 10 interviews?

So the actual number of interviews at AA could be huge number.

This can be very good news for the job market....

 

[Flightdawg]

Number 1, I can possibly foresee happening only with a tremendous spike in fuel prices. Otherwise, parking that many a/c would cause AA to lose a LOT of market share.

Number 2 (PBS) is DOA and not even making it to the negotiating table. PBS is a SCAM and a MAJOR concession. Number 3 (increased hours) is also highly unlikely, as it is a major concession that the membership knows will prevent furloughed guys from coming back.

ASA just approved PBS and likes it. Didn't TWA have it and like it too?

Is it a concession to be allowed to work more hours? I can see having a cap on how many hows they can schedule you, but allowing pilots to pick up extra flight time is a contract improvement, not a concession.

 

[aa73]

ASA just approved PBS and likes it. Didn't TWA have it and like it too?

Is it a concession to be allowed to work more hours? I can see having a cap on how many hows they can schedule you, but allowing pilots to pick up extra flight time is a contract improvement, not a concession.

PBS at AA would be a DISASTER. TWA pilots liked it because the union and the company agreed that the union would run it. AA would NEVER hand over those keys to APA.

Regarding your second point - working more hours is a concession, period. ESPECIALLY with pilots on furlough. We are capped to 78 hours (lines) with the option to pick up to 83. Anything more will require less pilots on the property. That is a concession.

 

[Flightdawg]

PBS at AA would be a DISASTER. TWA pilots liked it because the union and the company agreed that the union would run it. AA would NEVER hand over those keys to APA.

That makes more sense. It isn't PBS that is the problem, it's your airline.

Regarding your second point - working more hours is a concession, period. ESPECIALLY with pilots on furlough. We are capped to 78 hours (lines) with the option to pick up to 83. Anything more will require less pilots on the property. That is a concession.

A concession to be allowed to fly more hours? No, it isn't. You are right about it would create less jobs.

Unions want to increase pay and increase the number of jobs, but they usually can't do both. They have to make a choice. If your union chooses jobs over pay, it is your option, but it's not a concession.

 

[aa73]

A concession to be allowed to fly more hours? No, it isn't. You are right about it would create less jobs.

Unions want to increase pay and increase the number of jobs, but they usually can't do both. They have to make a choice. If your union chooses jobs over pay, it is your option, but it's not a concession.

Let me put it in a way you can understand.

More hours worked = less time off. Less time off = a concession.

Many pilots want to work more hours... why, to make more money? That's what a pay raise is for. The whole object of the pay raise is to keep the same work rules while making more money. This has been management's "reasoning".... "hey, you want to make more, let's just raise the monthly average up to 83, with pick up to 88." Bam, you now have a concessionary contract.

I can tell you that a monthly increase in hours, whether lines or pick up, will result in a No vote for an overwhelming majority of AA pilots. Now, give us our pay restoration and schedule us more efficiently during our 78 hour months (read: not so much sit time) and we'll gladly accept.

Don't fall so easily into management's line of reasoning that your pay raise comes along with increased work hours. They would love for you to believe that. Just take a look at UAL and CAL contracts, and how much they work a month. And you say that's not a concession?

 

[Flightdawg]

Let me put it in a way you can understand.

More hours worked = less time off. Less time off = a concession.

Let me put it in a way you can understand.

More hours worked = more pay. Pay raises = more pay.

Pay Raises + More hours worked = a lot more pay.

Taking a pay raise but capping hours so the airline has to hire more pilots isn't a concession, but it isn't a bonus for the pilots on the property either. Helping furloughed pilots is one thing, but what happens when all have returned? Capping hours hamstrings a pilot's income.

 

[aa73]

Let me put it in a way you can understand.

More hours worked = more pay. Pay raises = more pay.

Pay Raises + More hours worked = a lot more pay.

Taking a pay raise but capping hours so the airline has to hire more pilots isn't a concession, but it isn't a bonus for the pilots on the property either. Helping furloughed pilots is one thing, but what happens when all have returned? Capping hours hamstrings a pilot's income.

HOW CAN CAPPING HOURS NOT BE A BONUS???

WHY do you pick up extra time? To make more money, right?

Say a 78 hour month produces a $6000 paycheck. To make $7000 you would go an pick up 6 more hours and be away from home one more day.

Now the Co gives you a 25% pay raise and keeps the monthly line value the same. So now your 78 hour month produces that $7000 check and you get to stay home that extra day.

If you can't see this line of reasoning and how working more IS a concession - then I can't help you, bro. You are associating working more with making more $$$, when a pay raise without working more clearly takes care of that

 

[tomgoodman]

Protecting you from your fellow pilot

Of course flying more hours increases this month's paycheck. Your pay penalty arrives if pilots senior to you fly additional hours, delaying your seat advancement. As with many things we would like to do, the benefit vanishes when everybody else does it too.

 

[aa73]

Bingo, Tom!

 

[C-150ETOPS]

A concession to be allowed to fly more hours? No, it isn't. You are right about it would create less jobs.

And guys flying RJ's just quite can't figure out why this has become such a sheetty career. Walk around operations fellas, you'll see more than a few guys that think flying 90/mth is a great deal for their paychecks.

The old AA guys in the 60's and 70's were geniuses. They fought and struck for a hard 75 hour month. Any extra time that busted it got you pulled from another trip with pay to bring you under the max.

It's a concession and a quality of life issue. What once the norm of an average 12/day month is now a 15+ day month. At AA, 85+ hours is generally a 16+ day month except for the senior guys of course (not scheduled, but with trip trading). SWA may do 85+ in 12 days, not here.

 

[beagle pilot]

Of course flying more hours increases this month's paycheck. Your pay penalty arrives if pilots senior to you fly additional hours, delaying your seat advancement. As with many things we would like to do, the benefit vanishes when everybody else does it too.

This has always been a battle; the senior half of the seniority list wants one thing and the junior half wants another. Once the junior half becomes the senior half, they change their minds and say "I guess those guys were right after all!"

 

[FO 4 Life]

And guys flying RJ's just quite can't figure out why this has become such a sheetty career. Walk around operations fellas, you'll see more than a few guys that think flying 90/mth is a great deal for their paychecks.

I had a scheduler the other day at my airline ask why I didn't want to fly more. I told him I had put in enough 900-1000 hour years and multiple leg days. I enjoyed my 165 block hours last year. (Mostly reserve with 55 hours in 2 weeks due to Redoubt)

 

[glasspilot1]

AA Retirements
4/11/2010 - 12/31/2010 0
01/01/2011 - 12/31/2011 0
01/01/2012 - 12/31/2012 5
01/01/2013 - 12/31/2013 136
01/01/2014 - 12/31/2014 197
01/01/2015 - 12/31/2015 258
01/01/2016 - 12/31/2016 248
01/01/2017 - 12/31/2017 283
01/01/2018 - 12/31/2018 356
01/01/2019 - 12/31/2019 456
01/01/2020 - 12/31/2020 545
01/01/2021 - 12/31/2021 605
01/01/2022 - 12/31/2022 658
01/01/2023 - 12/31/2023 705
01/01/2024 - 12/31/2024 720
01/01/2025 - 12/31/2025 734
01/01/2026 - 12/31/2026 707
01/01/2027 - 12/31/2027 588
01/01/2028 - 12/31/2028 497
01/01/2029 - 12/31/2029 472
01/01/2030 - 12/31/2030 410
​

This assumes the old guys won't come back for another round (raise the retirement to 67?) in their bid to "Fly till ya die"!

Just kidding!

 

[superatr]

Do these AE guys really want to go to AA??
When they go they WILL be based in STL with a few lucky ones getting LGA or MIA. They will be locked in that base for a year and you can forget about getting DFW or ORD for years and years. There are hundreds of guys on property that have reinstatement rights that trump seniority in bidding back to these bases.

Can someone please post AA's hardship criteria for changing bases?
I know that Eagles' is very restrictive. I was wondering how's AA's language compares.

 

[beagle pilot]

This assumes the old guys won't come back for another round (raise the retirement to 67?) in their bid to "Fly till ya die"!

Yeah, I heard from a reliable source that all the geezers have formed a secret group to have it changed to "Unlimited" and based solely upon medical and cognitive fitness instead of an arbitrary age. They'll make this apply to everybody regardless of age.

Just Kidding!