AA to Lay Off 2,500 Pilots...... Ouch!!!

[enigma]

supply=demand, that is the only even factor in business... the rest is artificial, and wages are a very major cost when business has to compete.

OK, I know better, yet I can't stand it. I've just got to point this out.

Do you not realize that you have just argued against yourself? The union is an ARTIFICIAL factor, and can only affect wages in a regulated market. In an open market, ie, one where a competitor can access resources (employees) at the prevailing market price, the resource will be priced according to what the resource provider is willing to sell for; in that light SWAPA has done an outstanding job of maintaining their profession. On the other hand, ALPA just negotiated me a paycheck that rewards me with $83K a year to command an MD80. From my perspective, SWAPA looks like a knight in shining armour.

regards,
8N

 

[HA25]

OK, I know better, yet I can't stand it. I've just got to point this out.

Do you not realize that you have just argued against yourself? The union is an ARTIFICIAL factor, and can only affect wages in a regulated market. In an open market, ie, one where a competitor can access resources (employees) at the prevailing market price, the resource will be priced according to what the resource provider is willing to sell for; in that light SWAPA has done an outstanding job of maintaining their profession. On the other hand, ALPA just negotiated me a paycheck that rewards me with $83K a year to command an MD80. From my perspective, SWAPA looks like a knight in shining armour.

regards,
8N

you lost me... pal. I DID state that the ONLY free market factor is Supply=Demand.... and implicit in that statement is the universal fact that unions are artificial factors. What's you're point? SWAPA (the union) didn't measure up to ALPA and APA... and now that the economy has turned, ALPA and APA are left racing them to the bottom... that is what's happening you know... a race to the bottom.

People, just go back and re-read you're own posts... you keep saying it over and over... SWA is PROFITABLE because they work harder for less money.... I don't even need to argue with you... you make my point for me.

 

[T45Flyer]

Some guys get it and some dont...

In order:

AlbieF15- Exactly! As always, you make an intelligent arguement and are well spoken. FedEx is a great company also, very stable, lot's of money, and a secure future. USNFDX, ClownJet, and many others are my campadres over there and get it also. Team concept has real meaning in business and those who have it will prevail and those who dont will fall. (eventually)

V70T5- The best advise I can give you is do NOT waste any money getting a type rating. Our interview teams would sniff you out in a second. SWA is a people company that happens to be a passenger carrier. Individuals that are out for all they can get, no matter at who's expense, wont make it here. But at least your consistant, and I can applaud that.
P.S. When you said Delta and UAL pay more for a 737 captain, you were only half right. Take what UAL is paying thier 737 guys and subtract 30%. And I wouldn't start spending that retirement just yet....

Mailman- a "trip" is the way we at SWA measure compensation. I believe it's 243 miles or something like that. I.E. a trip from MDW to LAX pays 4.35 trips for pay. So multiply the number of trips by your trip rate and thats what you earn. Our minimum daily gaurentee is 6.5 trips, even if you just fly once.

Also, I realize that putting our pay scale on the board is like hanging your johnson out to be cut off. I know that there are other pilots out there that make more that we do, FedEx, UPS, and Delta, etc.. But I think many people who do not have access to our pay scale think we work 14 hours a day for 25K a year. This is not the case and also has nothing to with why I love this job.

See ya!

 

[Juniority]

Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue are not the problem, they are the messenger. What message you ask? They are the message sent by Jimmy Carter in 1978. What did the message say you ask? It said, "The times they are a changin'.... and you'd better change with them or you'll end up getting run over by someone who can change."

 

[flx757]

Re: Re: Once again V70T5 speakith garbage..

eitherway... you'll see, SWA will be the next major to fall into the trap of competing downwards.... you've got non-union Jet Blue as well as ATA, AirTran and Frontier all in the running for the same markets and the same business model. Non of them have a retirement or any of the other perks that DAL and UAL had/have.

In response to your statement "Non(e) of them have a retirement"...

I can't speak for the others, but AirTran has a company funded "Defined Contribution Pension Plan" or "B-Fund" where the company contributes 8% of the pilot's gross monthly income (10.5% as of 3/31/04). Maybe that doesn't compare to the "perks that DAL and UAL had/have", but it certainly qualifies as a "retirement".

 

[HA25]

Re: Some guys get it and some dont...

V70T5- The best advise I can give you is do NOT waste any money getting a type rating. Our interview teams would sniff you out in a second. SWA is a people company that happens to be a passenger carrier. Individuals that are out for all they can get, no matter at who's expense, wont make it here. But at least your consistant, and I can applaud that.See ya!

How presumptuous.... you really are arrogant with that statement. I'm trying to have a discussion about the economic situation of being a pilot in this post 9/11 time we live in, and you presume that I envy you? Like you said, "Some people just don't get it"

Plus.... I wouldn't buy any type for anyone, as I don't believe in PFT.

 

[HA25]

Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue are not the problem, they are the messenger. What message you ask? They are the message sent by Jimmy Carter in 1978. What did the message say you ask? It said, "The times they are a changin'.... and you'd better change with them or you'll end up getting run over by someone who can change."

we'll see just how much times have changed when this economy rebounds and passenger travel returns to its original forcasts... Or do you also think that people are never going to return to the air due to possible terrorists? I mean SWA has been around for a long time, it's now like people haven't had that option before? Budgets are tight in a down economy, and it logically follows that SWA is going to be used in leu of American more often than in a good economy.

These doom and gloom cycles occur every so often, and some are deep and some are shallow...

It's too bad we can't remain in contact to see who's right, but I'm sure when those good times return, many here will remember this discussion.

 

[68pilot]

Hey V70, I would just give up on this thread. You sir, are in fact correct. The majors will recover, and make Bazillions of dollars, and the Pilots will end up renegotiating at the bottom of the next down turn (as always). I believe I saw that American pilots are signing a six year concessionary contract. I hope to hell they put a snapback clause in there somewhere...

Best regards,
68 pilot

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Re: Once again V70T5 speakith garbage..

Hey, VT-

Your village called- they want their idiot back.
Before you start trashing SWA, AirTran and the rest, why don't you listen up on the frequency before keying your mike?

Originally posted by V70T5
BTW, DAL and UAL paid more for 737 captain

To be a UAL 737 skipper in a timely fashion would have meant being a Shuttle Captain, which did not pay more than SWA. Not sure about the Delta Express guys, but I suspect the same over there.

Regardless, it doesn't matter- because those jobs don't exist anymore . . . . and not because of SWA and AirTran, but because of the economy and the fact that people are sick of paying $600. to go 400 miles. They're tired of the best customers getting charged the most. Thye're tired of crappy service from disgruntled CSA's and bitter, overly-senior galley hags.

and [the Legacy carriers] also provided retirement, duty rig, dropped trips etc...

Of course SWA, AirTran, and Jet Blue provide duty rig, dropped trip, cancelled trip, etc. and I'll address the retirement issue below.

.... you've got non-union Jet Blue as well as ATA, AirTran and Frontier all in the running for the same markets and the same business model.

If you'd look at our route structures, you see we really don;t compete for the same markets, not much. And our models are not that similar, either. SWA avoids many of the metro airports we serve, such as BOS, PHL, LGA, EWR and of course ATL. JBlue has its own niche, too. I believe the only reason they have anything out of ATL is to put DAL on notice. ATA has a huge charter arm. Frontier is primarily a West coast alternative to UAL.

Non of them have a retirement or any of the other perks that DAL and UAL had/have.

You are at best, misinformed, or- at worst, a mindless, masturbating moron:

AirTran has a 10.5% "B" Fund . . . . and we administer it ourselves. We may not get paid 80 hours for 'working" 35, but we have decent rigs, and, more importantly, JOBS.

As for the other companies, I'll let their guys explain their retirement options, but I guarantee you they're better off than the USAirways guys.

You can go sit in your corporate jet (been here, done that) and whine about how we've all done you wrong, and can you tell everyone who'll listen how you're "protecting the profession" while you are working outside of the industry . . . . . just don't splatter any of your dinosaur sh!t in here, because it's getting very old, and very sad very fast.

Rats, I seem to have violated my own motto . . . . . .

 

[WhiteCloud]

Re: SWA

ever consider that maybe the flying public has used there wallets to decide which product they prefer? The reason SWA seems to be taking over is because people like flying them. The established majors lost sight of the most important factor, customer service.

You bet! You don't have to screw around with them about the price and you have a confirmed ticket instead of a standby arrangement.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Re: Re: SWA

Someone needs to take his own advice about being civil.

P.S.
That village idiot joke is getting pretty old.

 

[NYRANGERS]

This argument is pointless. Its like comparing the NY Rangers to the Hartford Wolfpack.

Obviously SWA is a great airline, congratulations to the pilots who chose to go there. Air Tran seems to be a good airline as well, but should not be compared to SWA. JetBlue seems to be another great airline for it's employees.

We all do silly little comparisons over who's airline is better. SWA has a very different niche than the network carriers. We compare Jetblue to Delta, how, jetblue operates around 40 airplanes currently. Delta operates 800, its not the same no matter how much we may want it to be.

One more thing. I don't see many people here berate guys who went to SWA, AirTran or Jetblue. So why do soo many guys here like to take shots at guys who went to the "classic major".

We all look like A-holes (including myself) giving each other a hard time about which airline we chose. So don't give a guy **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** for choosing UAL over Airtran and hopefully no one here will give a guy **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** when things recover (which they will).

Just some Sunday afternoon rambling.

Good luck to all pilots who fly airplanes for a living.

NYR (out of the playoffs for the 6th stratight year) payroll $80 million
Hartford Wolfpack (made the playoffs this year) payroll, a lot less than $80 million

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Re: Re: SWA

Someone needs to take his own advice about being civil[/i]

Sorry. I don;t suffer fools well.

P.S.
That village idiot joke is getting pretty old.

When you get a sense of humor, FDJ, I'll start taking your critiques to heart.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that we were having a joke-off here.

I just thought I'd point out that when the same line is used on every thread, it loses some of its luster. However, it's not my place to judge, so if you want to continue using it, by all means, go right ahead. Have fun with it.

 

[Ty Webb]

I've used it occasionally on this board for the past 6 years. Lately, I've been forced to break it out more frequently. . . perhaps it is becoming a bit shopworn.

I have plenty more I can dust off and return to service.