AA to Lay Off 2,500 Pilots...... Ouch!!!

[trainerjet]

V70T5,

I'm not trying to make you look like an idiot. Since you elected to delete the part of your post which I quoted, I didn't feel it was fair for me to leave it in mine. So, I deleted my post. Good luck.

 

[Dennis Miller]

What can I say? I'm a dick because I worry about the road our profession is on.....

No, you're just a dick in general.

I don't want to get on a rant here but why is it some pilots choose to blame their ills on other pilots, Lee Harvey Oswald, the hole in the ozone and Orville and Wilbur Wright. The fact remains that many "so called pilots" on this bitch board find new ways to funnel their lack of balls against their own management that they blame it on the other pilots for not standing up against theirs. If you believe the Low Cost pilots drink Kool-Aid then I'd have to argue the Network pilots have Stockholm Syndrome. Their Management tells these poor bastards that the only way to save any means of a job is by working for a fraction of what they used to make. They then agree to more cuts than a Teamster at a NYC construction site. Hey! Cha-Cha, wake up! It's not that Leo Mullin and Don Carty worship the Devil, the devil worships them. Your own true enemy is right at the Presidential Palaces in Atlanta and Dallas. While your airline is being destroyed you guys are rallying around these jack-asses like those idiots chanting around Saddam. It's time for Regime change my friend and if you still cling to the dreamworld of your fellow pilots "raising the bar for you", they would rather lower it right on your Kumbya singing head. Every pilot that logs into this site just can't wait to get in hoping to see that Liquidated thread that might save their job from any type of futher pain. Spare me your "fellow pilots" banter when you only support those who you feel are wronged by working for less and not those who made less to begin with. You are the same type of person that would spit on someone wearing fur while stepping over some poor bastard lying in their own urine. I'll ask you just one last question. What have you done for your profession lately? And if everyone was like you what kind of a profession whould we have? Thats just how I feel America.

 

[jinxy]

SWA

Hey Volvo lover, ever consider that maybe the flying public has used there wallets to decide which product they prefer? The reason SWA seems to be taking over is because people like flying them. The established majors lost sight of the most important factor, customer service.

 

[Habib]

Reality

As once said, “ Be greedy when others are cautious, and be cautious when others are greedy.” Don’t be mad at or fellow pilots because they still have a job and maybe had some sense in the reality of what this brain surgery of a job we do is worth.

 

[HA25]

I never said that AMR and DAL management isn't part to blame, but it sure doesn't help things when all the airline anaylists out there keep talking about how SWA is making money because they don't pay too much.... clearly there is some blame to this fact in the SWAPA... I don't fault SWA pilots for working there, I just wish they would have been more agressive in working their contracts towards the other majors, rather than the other way... sure the market is going to favor the lowest cost option, that is after all what the free market does, and this is why we have unions, otherwise we'd all be making peanuts. The fact remains that SWA and JB are making money and the others aren't and this WILL exert pressure in the wrong direction on wages...

But that's ok, fine I loose... clearly we are overpaid and underworked in this profession.

SWA should now be the benchmark for pay and reitrements.

Good luck to all of you out there in what ever you do... I think I'm just pissing in the wind here. I give up.

I'll just go back to my 135 job and be happy to be with I have.... after all I am not being forced to fly for a living.

 

[HA25]

No, you're just a dick in general.

I don't want to get on a rant here but why is it some pilots choose to blame their ills on other pilots, Lee Harvey Oswald, the hole in the ozone and Orville and Wilbur Wright. The fact remains that many "so called pilots" on this bitch board find new ways to funnel their lack of balls against their own management that they blame it on the other pilots for not standing up against theirs. If you believe the Low Cost pilots drink Kool-Aid then I'd have to argue the Network pilots have Stockholm Syndrome. Their Management tells these poor bastards that the only way to save any means of a job is by working for a fraction of what they used to make. They then agree to more cuts than a Teamster at a NYC construction site. Hey! Cha-Cha, wake up! It's not that Leo Mullin and Don Carty worship the Devil, the devil worships them. Your own true enemy is right at the Presidential Palaces in Atlanta and Dallas. While your airline is being destroyed you guys are rallying around these jack-asses like those idiots chanting around Saddam. It's time for Regime change my friend and if you still cling to the dreamworld of your fellow pilots "raising the bar for you", they would rather lower it right on your Kumbya singing head. Every pilot that logs into this site just can't wait to get in hoping to see that Liquidated thread that might save their job from any type of futher pain. Spare me your "fellow pilots" banter when you only support those who you feel are wronged by working for less and not those who made less to begin with. You are the same type of person that would spit on someone wearing fur while stepping over some poor bastard lying in their own urine. I'll ask you just one last question. What have you done for your profession lately? And if everyone was like you what kind of a profession whould we have? Thats just how I feel America.

What's sad (and scary) about what you are saying above is that I agree with most of it... that is if you take out the fact that it is directed to me... I wonder if you really know what I'm talking about when you go into a tirade like that... maybe I'm just not making my point clear with this forum... I'm going to stick to verbal discussions about this topic as I never seem to get the same hostile reception as I am getting here by my "fellow" pilots. That is unless this is all some kind of conspiracy and you're all Airline CEO's pretending to be pilots.

Anyway, like I said, I give up...

BTW, you ask what I have done for my profession?

-I'm a 10 year member of ALPA
-I get paid at the top of the NBAA scale on my current equipement
-I get a 14 day per month fixed schedule

And I accept nothing less.....that is what I have done.

 

[T45Flyer]

Once again V70T5 speakith garbage..

I cant believe your statement:

clearly there is some blame to this fact in the SWAPA... I don't fault SWA pilots for working there, I just wish they would have been more agressive in working their contracts towards the other majors, rather than the other way...

You obviously have no clue of our earning potential at SWA. We have achieved a raise in the time every other major has taken a huge pay cut. SWAPA has done an outstanding job of negotating nice compensation for us, (ie some of the captains that still have 50,000 shares of luv at a 3 dollar strike price, just flew with one the other day.)

A first year captain who upgrades in 5 years will earn a $162.39/trip, equal to $211.11/hour at time of upgrade. Considering most guys fly 110 trips per month in 11-12 days (taken from may bid out of chicago) thats $17,862 month or $214,354 a year. NOT including STOCK OPTIONS or PROFIT SHARING! And it is very easy to earn more if your so inclined.

So, if you consider this chicken feed, your wacked. The total package is great money and the wall street guys say we make less because our overall pilot labor expenses are lower due to the fact that we do actually fly on our work days and it takes much less pilots to achieve the desired affect, ie PROFITABILITY.

Good day. -T45flyer

 

[HA25]

Re: Once again V70T5 speakith garbage..

I cant believe your statement:

clearly there is some blame to this fact in the SWAPA... I don't fault SWA pilots for working there, I just wish they would have been more agressive in working their contracts towards the other majors, rather than the other way...

You obviously have no clue of our earning potential at SWA. We have achieved a raise in the time every other major has taken a huge pay cut. SWAPA has done an outstanding job of negotating nice compensation for us, (ie some of the captains that still have 50,000 shares of luv at a 3 dollar strike price, just flew with on the other day.)

A first year captain who upgrades in 5 years will earn a $162.39/trip, equal to $211.11/hour at time of upgrade. Considering most guys fly 110 trips per month in 11-12 days (taken from may bid out of chicago) thats $17,862 month or $214,354 a year. NOT including STOCK OPTIONS or PROFIT SHARING! And it is very easy to earn more if your so inclined.

So, if you consider this chicken feed, your wacked. The total package is great money and the wall street guys say we make less because our overall pilot labor expenses are lower due to the fact that we do actually fly on our work days and it takes much less pilots to achieve the desired affect, ie PROFITABILITY.

Good day. -T45flyer

Good for you... keep up the good work. next phase, a retirement.

BTW, DAL and UAL paid more for 737 captain and also provided retirement, duty rig, dropped trips etc...

eitherway... you'll see, SWA will be the next major to fall into the trap of competing downwards.... you've got non-union Jet Blue as well as ATA, AirTran and Frontier all in the running for the same markets and the same business model. Non of them have a retirement or any of the other perks that DAL and UAL had/have.

We'll look back on this in a few years and I'll either be dead wrong, or dead right... I hope it's the former.

 

[AlbieF15]

Last I checked, most SWA guys and JetBlue guys were pretty happy with their paychecks, their company, and their lot in life.

Many of us had a choice when we picked out future carriers. An Eagle buddy of mine had both a SWA and an AA class. He choose AA due to the higher "top end" and the glamor of international flying and many of the other perks AA offered. He also planned on living in DAL, so domicilie issues were a wash. Pre 9/11, I might have made the same choice... Anyway--he's furloughed now, and things are tough for him. I know he's second guessed himself a few times, but I've never heard him badmouth a single SWA pilot for "undermining" his earning potential.

Now...the market has changed, and the low cost carriers are making money while others aren't. The power of internet pricing, the economy on a down cycle, and the 9/11 fallout are causing a lot of pain. However--I don't think anyone I know who chose to go to SWA did it with malice towards anyone. Instead, they did the math on their fingers and toes, and decided that working at SWA made sense for them. For some of them, the idea was they liked living in PHX, DAL, BWI, or MCO and flying short trips. Many liked the fact SWA had "never furloughed a pilot", and stability in the short term was worth more than 777 dollars down the road. Some were over 42 when they started their careers, and realized due to the large numbers of young guys hired at UAL, DAL, and AA that SWA or FDX would ultimately be more lucrative for them due to the fact they'd never make top 20% at another carrier. In any case, they spent their 10k and got their type, and a bunch of them are now living "happy ever after".

Instead of just lambasting those guys, maybe ALPA groups should try to emulate some of their model instead. (And I'm an ALPA dues paying member....) SWA guys make a very fair wage, and when the company profits they make even more. SWA guys have a sense of comaraderie and mutual support that resembles the feeling of a military unit. And....their company has been successful. Somehow, many unions have decided that negotiations away from safety issues are largely a zero sum game--you win or we win. While there are some issues within SWAPA, it seems to me that they are overall a much happier group of pilots than many others out there. As for compensation--how much is that ALPA negotiated A plan at USAir worth now? How much are you making for AA, UAL, or DAL while furloughed? SWA guys can take their profit sharing check EVERY YEAR and put it in a bank--saving it just in case hard times show up. If I can GUARANTEE my A fund and B fund will be there, who wouldn't rather have the traditional airline retirement? Unfortunately, a lot of guys at USAir got WAILED on in the latest TA. The latest round of TAs has shown that a contract is just a piece of paper--your company HAS to make money to feed and take care of you and your family along the way.

If upholding the profession means standing up with your local union for improving work rules and compensation, that makes sense to me. Unions are our counter to very hard nosed business practices that management can dish out. Certainly, standing together across the industry for support on safety is also an important part of being a professional pilot. However, if being a real "professional" means blasting a bunch of guys who like their jobs, make 100,000-200,000 bucks every year working about 15 days away from home, and seem to like their job--I would argue you definition of "standing up for the profession" is flawed.

 

[HA25]

AlbieF15,

you make a lot of good points, and I never personally tried to paint any one individual SWA pilot as bad for the profession, but rather the collective or maybe their union representation. I have personally spoken with many SWA pilots in my days who wish they were more like the others in pay and work rules.... this is why when the times were good in this industry, many were leaving SWA for the now ailing majors... That isn't to say that there is anything wrong with wanting what SWA has to offer, but rather there is something wrong (from a pilot fraternal view) with working harder doing the same thing for less.... which is in effect what SWA pilots do.

I will not go into a debate over furloughs and who's crying now with regards to the current status of the industry, as I think that had SWA and other "discount" carries been paying the same wage and with the same rules as American, Delta, UAL, NWA, and US air, there would be a lot less distinction between the economic state of those airlines compared with SWA. Yes, SWA has a unique model that will generally provide some kind of advantage in capital usage, but the fact remains that it is impossible to compete on a wage basis with them.... therefore it logically follows that they (as a pilot group) have contributed to the wage concessions pressure at the other carriers.

I'm not saying there would be no job or pay cuts, were SWA to pay parity wages, I am just saying it would be a lot less... As the economy is still going to require a reduction in schedules (read furloughs).

But now we are told we are in a new era for airlines, and that everyone is going to be like SWA... which is another way of saying we are going to compete downwards...


AlbieF15....ask youself, if UPS, were to increase their pilot productivity while paying 20-30% less... do you think Fedex could afford to pay you the way they do? Really?

We all talk about ALPA, but do we really know the history of ALPA and pilot pay/workrules? (re)read flying the line....

supply=demand, that is the only even factor in business... the rest is artificial, and wages are a very major cost when business has to compete.

 

[enigma]

supply=demand, that is the only even factor in business... the rest is artificial, and wages are a very major cost when business has to compete.

OK, I know better, yet I can't stand it. I've just got to point this out.

Do you not realize that you have just argued against yourself? The union is an ARTIFICIAL factor, and can only affect wages in a regulated market. In an open market, ie, one where a competitor can access resources (employees) at the prevailing market price, the resource will be priced according to what the resource provider is willing to sell for; in that light SWAPA has done an outstanding job of maintaining their profession. On the other hand, ALPA just negotiated me a paycheck that rewards me with $83K a year to command an MD80. From my perspective, SWAPA looks like a knight in shining armour.

regards,
8N

 

[HA25]

OK, I know better, yet I can't stand it. I've just got to point this out.

Do you not realize that you have just argued against yourself? The union is an ARTIFICIAL factor, and can only affect wages in a regulated market. In an open market, ie, one where a competitor can access resources (employees) at the prevailing market price, the resource will be priced according to what the resource provider is willing to sell for; in that light SWAPA has done an outstanding job of maintaining their profession. On the other hand, ALPA just negotiated me a paycheck that rewards me with $83K a year to command an MD80. From my perspective, SWAPA looks like a knight in shining armour.

regards,
8N

you lost me... pal. I DID state that the ONLY free market factor is Supply=Demand.... and implicit in that statement is the universal fact that unions are artificial factors. What's you're point? SWAPA (the union) didn't measure up to ALPA and APA... and now that the economy has turned, ALPA and APA are left racing them to the bottom... that is what's happening you know... a race to the bottom.

People, just go back and re-read you're own posts... you keep saying it over and over... SWA is PROFITABLE because they work harder for less money.... I don't even need to argue with you... you make my point for me.

 

[T45Flyer]

Some guys get it and some dont...

In order:

AlbieF15- Exactly! As always, you make an intelligent arguement and are well spoken. FedEx is a great company also, very stable, lot's of money, and a secure future. USNFDX, ClownJet, and many others are my campadres over there and get it also. Team concept has real meaning in business and those who have it will prevail and those who dont will fall. (eventually)

V70T5- The best advise I can give you is do NOT waste any money getting a type rating. Our interview teams would sniff you out in a second. SWA is a people company that happens to be a passenger carrier. Individuals that are out for all they can get, no matter at who's expense, wont make it here. But at least your consistant, and I can applaud that.
P.S. When you said Delta and UAL pay more for a 737 captain, you were only half right. Take what UAL is paying thier 737 guys and subtract 30%. And I wouldn't start spending that retirement just yet....

Mailman- a "trip" is the way we at SWA measure compensation. I believe it's 243 miles or something like that. I.E. a trip from MDW to LAX pays 4.35 trips for pay. So multiply the number of trips by your trip rate and thats what you earn. Our minimum daily gaurentee is 6.5 trips, even if you just fly once.

Also, I realize that putting our pay scale on the board is like hanging your johnson out to be cut off. I know that there are other pilots out there that make more that we do, FedEx, UPS, and Delta, etc.. But I think many people who do not have access to our pay scale think we work 14 hours a day for 25K a year. This is not the case and also has nothing to with why I love this job.

See ya!

 

[Juniority]

Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue are not the problem, they are the messenger. What message you ask? They are the message sent by Jimmy Carter in 1978. What did the message say you ask? It said, "The times they are a changin'.... and you'd better change with them or you'll end up getting run over by someone who can change."

 

[flx757]

Re: Re: Once again V70T5 speakith garbage..

eitherway... you'll see, SWA will be the next major to fall into the trap of competing downwards.... you've got non-union Jet Blue as well as ATA, AirTran and Frontier all in the running for the same markets and the same business model. Non of them have a retirement or any of the other perks that DAL and UAL had/have.

In response to your statement "Non(e) of them have a retirement"...

I can't speak for the others, but AirTran has a company funded "Defined Contribution Pension Plan" or "B-Fund" where the company contributes 8% of the pilot's gross monthly income (10.5% as of 3/31/04). Maybe that doesn't compare to the "perks that DAL and UAL had/have", but it certainly qualifies as a "retirement".

 

[HA25]

Re: Some guys get it and some dont...

V70T5- The best advise I can give you is do NOT waste any money getting a type rating. Our interview teams would sniff you out in a second. SWA is a people company that happens to be a passenger carrier. Individuals that are out for all they can get, no matter at who's expense, wont make it here. But at least your consistant, and I can applaud that.See ya!

How presumptuous.... you really are arrogant with that statement. I'm trying to have a discussion about the economic situation of being a pilot in this post 9/11 time we live in, and you presume that I envy you? Like you said, "Some people just don't get it"

Plus.... I wouldn't buy any type for anyone, as I don't believe in PFT.

 

[HA25]

Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue are not the problem, they are the messenger. What message you ask? They are the message sent by Jimmy Carter in 1978. What did the message say you ask? It said, "The times they are a changin'.... and you'd better change with them or you'll end up getting run over by someone who can change."

we'll see just how much times have changed when this economy rebounds and passenger travel returns to its original forcasts... Or do you also think that people are never going to return to the air due to possible terrorists? I mean SWA has been around for a long time, it's now like people haven't had that option before? Budgets are tight in a down economy, and it logically follows that SWA is going to be used in leu of American more often than in a good economy.

These doom and gloom cycles occur every so often, and some are deep and some are shallow...

It's too bad we can't remain in contact to see who's right, but I'm sure when those good times return, many here will remember this discussion.

 

[68pilot]

Hey V70, I would just give up on this thread. You sir, are in fact correct. The majors will recover, and make Bazillions of dollars, and the Pilots will end up renegotiating at the bottom of the next down turn (as always). I believe I saw that American pilots are signing a six year concessionary contract. I hope to hell they put a snapback clause in there somewhere...

Best regards,
68 pilot

 

[Ty Webb]

Re: Re: Once again V70T5 speakith garbage..

Hey, VT-

Your village called- they want their idiot back.
Before you start trashing SWA, AirTran and the rest, why don't you listen up on the frequency before keying your mike?

Originally posted by V70T5
BTW, DAL and UAL paid more for 737 captain

To be a UAL 737 skipper in a timely fashion would have meant being a Shuttle Captain, which did not pay more than SWA. Not sure about the Delta Express guys, but I suspect the same over there.

Regardless, it doesn't matter- because those jobs don't exist anymore . . . . and not because of SWA and AirTran, but because of the economy and the fact that people are sick of paying $600. to go 400 miles. They're tired of the best customers getting charged the most. Thye're tired of crappy service from disgruntled CSA's and bitter, overly-senior galley hags.

and [the Legacy carriers] also provided retirement, duty rig, dropped trips etc...

Of course SWA, AirTran, and Jet Blue provide duty rig, dropped trip, cancelled trip, etc. and I'll address the retirement issue below.

.... you've got non-union Jet Blue as well as ATA, AirTran and Frontier all in the running for the same markets and the same business model.

If you'd look at our route structures, you see we really don;t compete for the same markets, not much. And our models are not that similar, either. SWA avoids many of the metro airports we serve, such as BOS, PHL, LGA, EWR and of course ATL. JBlue has its own niche, too. I believe the only reason they have anything out of ATL is to put DAL on notice. ATA has a huge charter arm. Frontier is primarily a West coast alternative to UAL.

Non of them have a retirement or any of the other perks that DAL and UAL had/have.

You are at best, misinformed, or- at worst, a mindless, masturbating moron:

AirTran has a 10.5% "B" Fund . . . . and we administer it ourselves. We may not get paid 80 hours for 'working" 35, but we have decent rigs, and, more importantly, JOBS.

As for the other companies, I'll let their guys explain their retirement options, but I guarantee you they're better off than the USAirways guys.

You can go sit in your corporate jet (been here, done that) and whine about how we've all done you wrong, and can you tell everyone who'll listen how you're "protecting the profession" while you are working outside of the industry . . . . . just don't splatter any of your dinosaur sh!t in here, because it's getting very old, and very sad very fast.

Rats, I seem to have violated my own motto . . . . . .

 

[WhiteCloud]

Re: SWA

ever consider that maybe the flying public has used there wallets to decide which product they prefer? The reason SWA seems to be taking over is because people like flying them. The established majors lost sight of the most important factor, customer service.

You bet! You don't have to screw around with them about the price and you have a confirmed ticket instead of a standby arrangement.