AA takes off without flaps!!!

[FlyBoeingJets]

I didn't know that your pax were considered part of the "crew" on an airliner. Guess I have a lot to learn about CRM.

Yes you do, if my generalization is accurate. (who knows).

I was/am wrong to make generalizations. My only real point was how often do the pax offer anything? If they do offer it, we should consider the input. The F/A may be the one really freaking out. I personally welcome input. We can even make a short PA to point out the flaps are properly set up for T/O.

Yeah its a bother. But you don't know how many of the pax or F/A's are freaking out and your efforts may allay their fears AND increase the likelihood they will fly you again. PAX feel uncomfortably out of control sitting in the back. Letting them feel their input matters has value.

If you are messing up, the day was saved. Unlikely but possible.

Practicing really good CRM means having the confidence to let others challenge your ego and not let it get bruised.

 

[se1776]

her we go a private pilot that knows everything.
here is another SJS case

do you use flaps on your little piper or cessna whe you take off?
have you heard an airline pilots come and question you why you
didn't used your flaps?

 

[PastV1]

Not if somebody has flown the greatest plane ever, no other than the Fighting Falcon.!

You mean the LAWN DART! (No offense to the 16's guys) They would be fine. A hot shi* 152 driver like yourself would not be.

 

[Rook]

He said, and I quote, "I have almost 1000 hours of flight time"....

I'm thinking of changing my sig to that Huck.

Now how bout some sponsorship?:beer:

 

[Laboule]

Don't you guys have any jobs/hobbies/girlfriends?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I've never flown an Airbus A-300-600, and therefore have no better "chops" to question flap position than the private pilot in question. But I know one thing...Most transport-category aircraft use flaps for take-off most of the time. If I'd been sitting in the seat, you can bet your a$$ I would have said something to the crew. I would expect nothing less of an Airbus pilot sitting in my jump seat, who observed something about my operation or the configuration of my aircraft that semed at odds with everything he knew about flying large aircraft.

This guy saw something that didn't look right to him, so he called it to the attention of a crewmember. It was probably a difficult decision to make, but he acted correctly, IMHO.

Not to be critical of any of our departed brethren, but had some "lowly private pilot" questioned the crews of the DC-9 that (tried to) take off from Detroit without flaps, or the 727 at Dallas that did the same, tragedy would have been averted. Likewise, an attempted take-off from an insufficient runway of recent note. Wasn't there a 727 that made it to short final without the gear? In every case, all it would have taken was one person saying, "you guys don't use flaps for all take-offs?" or "using the short runway today?" or "XXX on final, CHECK YOUR GEAR!"to have made a difference.

Having an ATP dosn't make one immune from oversight or simple, dumb mistakes. Likewise, having a "mere" private pilot license doesn't make one less credible in their observance of things that don't seem right in or around the operation of airplanes. I'd rather answer a million dumb questions from the back over the course of a career, than to sift an airplane and a hundred and fifty people through the trees just once.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Likewise, having a "mere" private pilot license doesn't make one less credible in their observance of things that don't seem right in or around the operation of airplanes.

I've tried over and over again to say that aloud without busting up. You can't possibly be serious, can you? :laugh:

Have you ever sat in the grandstand at an air show and listened to all the ridiculous comments from the peanut gallery of aviation's finest?

BBB

 

[Morning Wood]

It was a requirement before the NWA accident as well. The takeoff warning horn did not work on the accident airplane.

Urband legend is that the cpt on the NW accident was known for pulling the CB for the aural warning.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I've tried over and over again to say that aloud without busting up. You can't possibly be serious, can you? :laugh:

Have you ever sat in the grandstand at an air show and listened to all the ridiculous comments from the peanut gallery of aviation's finest?

BBB

I'm as serious as a heart attack. Yes, I've heard the same inane comments you have at air shows and on the evening news, but you have to consider the source. They're usually made by people on the observer-side of the fence, not pilots.

I'm not a cop, but if see somebody sneaking into a window at 4 A.M., (something I'm not accustomed to seeing) I'll mention it to one. I'm not an A&P, but if I notice a castellated nut on a critical component that isn't cottered, (again, something I'm not used to seeing) I'll mention it to a mechanic. If it doesn't need one, they'll tell me. If it does, and my observation keeps a wheel from going through somebody's roof at 200 MPH, they'll thank me. Either way, it's no big deal to make sure.

There was a story (perhaps apocryphal) some time back of a legacy carrier's 767 waiting to take an active runway with red-streamered gear pins clearly in place. When asked by the trailing aircraft about the streamers, the 767 pilots dismissed them because they were "mere" non-sked freight pilots.

Hey, that's one way to get some valuable time off without having to hit the vacation bank...

People with absolutely NO knowledge of our business probably won't notice things that are out of place. They're happy to sit back and enjoy their in-flight magazines and play with their laptops. But the kind of guy who says to a flight crewmember "I'm just a private pilot, but are those cowling latches supposed to stick up like that?" is welcome on my airplane any day.

 

[embpic1]

I'm as serious as a heart attack. Yes, I've heard the same inane comments you have at air shows and on the evening news, but you have to consider the source. They're usually made by people on the observer-side of the fence, not pilots.

I'm not a cop, but if see somebody sneaking into a window at 4 A.M., (something I'm not accustomed to seeing) I'll mention it to one. I'm not an A&P, but if I notice a castellated nut on a critical component that isn't cottered, (again, something I'm not used to seeing) I'll mention it to a mechanic. If it doesn't need one, they'll tell me. If it does, and my observation keeps a wheel from going through somebody's roof at 200 MPH, they'll thank me. Either way, it's no big deal to make sure.

There was a story (perhaps apocryphal) some time back of a legacy carrier's 767 waiting to take an active runway with red-streamered gear pins clearly in place. When asked by the trailing aircraft about the streamers, the 767 pilots dismissed them because they were "mere" non-sked freight pilots.

Hey, that's one way to get some valuable time off without having to hit the vacation bank...

People with absolutely NO knowledge of our business probably won't notice things that are out of place. They're happy to sit back and enjoy their in-flight magazines and play with their laptops. But the kind of guy who says to a flight crewmember "I'm just a private pilot, but are those cowling latches supposed to stick up like that?" is welcome on my airplane any day.

What he said... (Nicely put by the way)

 

[Gorilla]

Not if somebody has flown the greatest plane ever, no other than the Fighting Falcon.!

Magnum!! You apparently have a new friend!

 

[JP4user]

Urband legend is that the cpt on the NW accident was known for pulling the CB for the aural warning.

If memory serves me correctly, it was determined that maintenace had pulled the cb before bringing the aircraft from the hanger.

 

[JP4user]

We call her "Bitchen Betty" on the 80.....

AA

They probably spent billions on researching a tone that would make male flight crews initiate prompt corrective action.

The most effective method of annoying a male into action was a female voice.

 

[glasspilot1]

If memory serves me correctly, it was determined that maintenace had pulled the cb before bringing the aircraft from the hanger.

If true, what happened to the cockpit pre-flight? Check all CB's in and check the T/O warning.

 

[JP4user]

If true, what happened to the cockpit pre-flight? Check all CB's in and check the T/O warning.

Sloppy preflight? No horn check required at the time?

The cb for t/o horn(if I remember) was really in a lousy place and easy to miss.