AA takes off without flaps!!!

[Huck]

At ASA about ~10 years ago, a friend of mine was captain on an ATR coming up from Ft. Walton to ATL.

The f/o was a weak sister who has since left the business. She shot the ILS in ATL since the ceiling was about 600 overcast. The ATR at heavy weights will not slow down clean on the glideslope, i.e. you can pull it to idle and it won't slow down - a mess if you are above max flap extension speed.

Bottom line: the captain didn't care for her much, let her go too far and they ended up having to go around.

Next week we got a call - a military guy in back wrote the airline, complaining that they went around because the crew forgot the gear, and that since they broke out just before they went around, he figured the tower must have warned them. He said, and I quote, "I have almost 1000 hours of flight time"....

 

[PastV1]

instructordude,

After I lose 2 motors and am down to 1 I'll call the private pilot up and hand it over to him. Wait, we don't have pax. Guess I'm screwed then! No one qualified to fly single engine. :0

 

[Beanie]

Unless you know the procedures for a specific aircraft, I say that private pilot needed to shut his man-pleaser. It would be different if that were a typed Airbus pilot sitting back there, who saw an obvious safety of flight issue that was going against the tech order...

Man-pleaser! I laughed so hard Dr. Pepper flew out of my nostrils...

 

[embpic1]

In the nine years I hauled people I had maybe 5 GA pilots express a concern at the end of the flight. So what. A short explanation and they were on their way. Now if this was happening every week it might become a pain in the rear, but there is really nothing any of us can do about it. Today's plane crashes are picked apart by the media. When the results of a crash is determined to be mostly the crews fault, people get anxious. If they see that those 'flap things' are not out for takeoff (which is not the norm for most jets) they might be inclined to speak up knowing that this has caused accidents in the past.

The bottom line is this.
- Yes it annoys us when passengers start critiquing us.
- Can we do anything about it... No.

Think of it this way. It provides us some entertainment in the crew lounge (or FlightInfo) lol

I especially like the story about the guy with the altimeter watch complaining about their cruise altitude. Classic.

 

[Gorilla]

You guys are almost all misssing the point. It's good he spoke up. Who knows he could have saved the day. He didn't but you never know. Kudos for speaking up!

I wouldn't rip on a guy with only a private. He's got some experience and it might just help.

Guat: You ARE a tool. This post's title was inflammatory, and you already knew the answer.

Anyone who creates unnecessary panic is off my airplane. If I flew a jet that regularly took off flaps up, I'd be sure all the FA's knew so they could squash incidents like this.

Two pax "tool-like" episodes - Anyone who flies a wide body (B-777) with an airshow (moving map GPS) display in the cabin can relate to someone freaking out because

"OMG THE AIRPLANE IS FLYING TOWARDS ALASKA! JAPAN IS THE OTHER WAY!!!!"

or even worse if you have to do major deviations or a divert, some moron staring at the airshow for 12 hours is bound to pipe up.

Greatest cabin tool award goes to: A guy I had in the MD-80 before 9-11. He had a laptop, a GPS, and believe it or not, he had written his own moving map software. He had all this crap laid out on the tray table in cruise, and every 5 minutes we'd get a cocktail napkin with a note like so:

1) What is your exact position? Heading, airspeed, winds aloft? I need to calibrate my system.
2) Are you sure? I show groundspeed of 450. Is it really 452 knots?
3) Why are we heading 124 degrees when 110 is a better heading to Newark?

etc etc. Finally we began to toy with him. We'd write back

1) Our GS is 693 knots. Wind 200 degrees, 266 knots.
2) "MAJOR wx system over West Virginia!! Deviating for a level 13 storm!!"

Stuff like that. I guess in retrospect he was more of a geek than a tool, but it did get annoying when we were trying to read the newspaper.

 

[rcbullock]

We should all start, like, a pilot's fight club in some basement.

Yeah, we'll call it *fight*info club. And we already covered the first rule.

Time to go make soap again....

 

[metrodriver]

Years ago a pax on the Concorde in Paris saw quite a lot of liquid coming out of a wing, told a f/a about it and she told the crew. Turned out to be a fuel leak big enough that they would not have made the other side of the pond

A few weeks back I saw the ground crew at JFK pull the engine of a DL 757 into a bagage cart. They pushed the plane back a little, manhandled the cart (with square tires, I'm not kidding) out of the way and continued the pull to the gate. I told El Capitan about it. According to most on this thread I should have kept my mouth shut. Guess what? You miss it on the post flight, next crew finds it and you are out of a job (at a lot of outfits that's the case).
Those stupid passengers...... what do they know?

 

[VMA214]

Flaps 0 (is not the term "trailing edge flaps" redundant) take-offs in the A-300 although not exactly "routine" are done occasionally during high OAT when terrain is a consideration. It is done for Climb limited TOW improvement.

Although I agree that paxs offering flying lessons is a pain in the butt it is a byproduct of the job...

 

[Gorilla]

Flaps 0 (is not the term "trailing edge flaps" redundant)

Many jets have leading edge flaps to differentiate them from LE slats. They are different.

 

[VMA214]

"Many jets have leading edge flaps to differentiate them from LE slats. They are different."

No sooner had I posted that than I thought "the bus does have Kreuger and Notch "flaps" both of which are on the front of the wing." Good catch.

 

[Fearless Tower]

You guys are almost all misssing the point. It's good he spoke up. Who knows he could have saved the day. He didn't but you never know. Kudos for speaking up!

I wouldn't rip on a guy with only a private. He's got some experience and it might just help.

I don't think the issue is really a matter of the pax asking the FA, but the loser for posting the whole story here AND A.net. I wholeheartedly agree with the assessment that theGuat is a TOOL and it was an inflammatory post. If he had simply posted a question along the lines of 'is it normal for A300's to takoff without tailing edge flaps extended' then I don't think we'd have 5 pages of replies!

 

[LarryinTN]

I have never even heard of such a thing until this thread. Images of the NWA MD80 crash in DTW come to mind when I think about taking off with no flaps.

The DC9/MD80 can take off with zero flaps just fine. The problem in DTW was that they had the slats retracted as well. The DC9/MD80 requires slats for all takeoffs.

Reducing the takeoff flaps increases your initial climb performance so it increases your climb-limit weight. The disadvantage is that it also increases your runway required thereby reducing your runway-limit weight. On a long runway the climb-limit weight will be more restrictive so you can carry more weight by using less, or no, flaps and a higher V1 and Vr speed. On shorter runways your runway-limit is more restrictive so you use more flaps and lower V1/Vr speeds to get a higher runway-limit.

Many airlines default to a configuration with flaps as their normal takeoff configuration as it results in more runway remaining at V1 for an abort and lower tire speeds. That is then adjusted, up or down, as necessary to lift the actual load.

 

[LarryinTN]

I thought after the NWA accident in DTW it was a requirement to have an aural warning on transport category aircraft when the flaps/ and or slats are in a TO setting.

It was a requirement before the NWA accident as well. The takeoff warning horn did not work on the accident airplane.

 

[glasspilot1]

Or how about the Comair crash in Lexington, with the Airtran jumpseater in the back. Too bad he didnt start yelling for the abort. ( but really, how was he to know?).

He may have had 30+ seconds to wonder why there were no runway lights visable on the T/O roll.

 

[instructordude]

instructordude,

After I lose 2 motors and am down to 1 I'll call the private pilot up and hand it over to him. Wait, we don't have pax. Guess I'm screwed then! No one qualified to fly single engine. :0

Not if somebody has flown the greatest plane ever, no other than the Fighting Falcon.!

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I didn't know that your pax were considered part of the "crew" on an airliner. Guess I have a lot to learn about CRM.

Yes you do, if my generalization is accurate. (who knows).

I was/am wrong to make generalizations. My only real point was how often do the pax offer anything? If they do offer it, we should consider the input. The F/A may be the one really freaking out. I personally welcome input. We can even make a short PA to point out the flaps are properly set up for T/O.

Yeah its a bother. But you don't know how many of the pax or F/A's are freaking out and your efforts may allay their fears AND increase the likelihood they will fly you again. PAX feel uncomfortably out of control sitting in the back. Letting them feel their input matters has value.

If you are messing up, the day was saved. Unlikely but possible.

Practicing really good CRM means having the confidence to let others challenge your ego and not let it get bruised.

 

[se1776]

her we go a private pilot that knows everything.
here is another SJS case

do you use flaps on your little piper or cessna whe you take off?
have you heard an airline pilots come and question you why you
didn't used your flaps?

 

[PastV1]

Not if somebody has flown the greatest plane ever, no other than the Fighting Falcon.!

You mean the LAWN DART! (No offense to the 16's guys) They would be fine. A hot shi* 152 driver like yourself would not be.

 

[Rook]

He said, and I quote, "I have almost 1000 hours of flight time"....

I'm thinking of changing my sig to that Huck.

Now how bout some sponsorship?:beer:

 

[Laboule]

Don't you guys have any jobs/hobbies/girlfriends?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I've never flown an Airbus A-300-600, and therefore have no better "chops" to question flap position than the private pilot in question. But I know one thing...Most transport-category aircraft use flaps for take-off most of the time. If I'd been sitting in the seat, you can bet your a$$ I would have said something to the crew. I would expect nothing less of an Airbus pilot sitting in my jump seat, who observed something about my operation or the configuration of my aircraft that semed at odds with everything he knew about flying large aircraft.

This guy saw something that didn't look right to him, so he called it to the attention of a crewmember. It was probably a difficult decision to make, but he acted correctly, IMHO.

Not to be critical of any of our departed brethren, but had some "lowly private pilot" questioned the crews of the DC-9 that (tried to) take off from Detroit without flaps, or the 727 at Dallas that did the same, tragedy would have been averted. Likewise, an attempted take-off from an insufficient runway of recent note. Wasn't there a 727 that made it to short final without the gear? In every case, all it would have taken was one person saying, "you guys don't use flaps for all take-offs?" or "using the short runway today?" or "XXX on final, CHECK YOUR GEAR!"to have made a difference.

Having an ATP dosn't make one immune from oversight or simple, dumb mistakes. Likewise, having a "mere" private pilot license doesn't make one less credible in their observance of things that don't seem right in or around the operation of airplanes. I'd rather answer a million dumb questions from the back over the course of a career, than to sift an airplane and a hundred and fifty people through the trees just once.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Likewise, having a "mere" private pilot license doesn't make one less credible in their observance of things that don't seem right in or around the operation of airplanes.

I've tried over and over again to say that aloud without busting up. You can't possibly be serious, can you? :laugh:

Have you ever sat in the grandstand at an air show and listened to all the ridiculous comments from the peanut gallery of aviation's finest?

BBB

 

[Morning Wood]

It was a requirement before the NWA accident as well. The takeoff warning horn did not work on the accident airplane.

Urband legend is that the cpt on the NW accident was known for pulling the CB for the aural warning.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I've tried over and over again to say that aloud without busting up. You can't possibly be serious, can you? :laugh:

Have you ever sat in the grandstand at an air show and listened to all the ridiculous comments from the peanut gallery of aviation's finest?

BBB

I'm as serious as a heart attack. Yes, I've heard the same inane comments you have at air shows and on the evening news, but you have to consider the source. They're usually made by people on the observer-side of the fence, not pilots.

I'm not a cop, but if see somebody sneaking into a window at 4 A.M., (something I'm not accustomed to seeing) I'll mention it to one. I'm not an A&P, but if I notice a castellated nut on a critical component that isn't cottered, (again, something I'm not used to seeing) I'll mention it to a mechanic. If it doesn't need one, they'll tell me. If it does, and my observation keeps a wheel from going through somebody's roof at 200 MPH, they'll thank me. Either way, it's no big deal to make sure.

There was a story (perhaps apocryphal) some time back of a legacy carrier's 767 waiting to take an active runway with red-streamered gear pins clearly in place. When asked by the trailing aircraft about the streamers, the 767 pilots dismissed them because they were "mere" non-sked freight pilots.

Hey, that's one way to get some valuable time off without having to hit the vacation bank...

People with absolutely NO knowledge of our business probably won't notice things that are out of place. They're happy to sit back and enjoy their in-flight magazines and play with their laptops. But the kind of guy who says to a flight crewmember "I'm just a private pilot, but are those cowling latches supposed to stick up like that?" is welcome on my airplane any day.

 

[embpic1]

I'm as serious as a heart attack. Yes, I've heard the same inane comments you have at air shows and on the evening news, but you have to consider the source. They're usually made by people on the observer-side of the fence, not pilots.

I'm not a cop, but if see somebody sneaking into a window at 4 A.M., (something I'm not accustomed to seeing) I'll mention it to one. I'm not an A&P, but if I notice a castellated nut on a critical component that isn't cottered, (again, something I'm not used to seeing) I'll mention it to a mechanic. If it doesn't need one, they'll tell me. If it does, and my observation keeps a wheel from going through somebody's roof at 200 MPH, they'll thank me. Either way, it's no big deal to make sure.

There was a story (perhaps apocryphal) some time back of a legacy carrier's 767 waiting to take an active runway with red-streamered gear pins clearly in place. When asked by the trailing aircraft about the streamers, the 767 pilots dismissed them because they were "mere" non-sked freight pilots.

Hey, that's one way to get some valuable time off without having to hit the vacation bank...

People with absolutely NO knowledge of our business probably won't notice things that are out of place. They're happy to sit back and enjoy their in-flight magazines and play with their laptops. But the kind of guy who says to a flight crewmember "I'm just a private pilot, but are those cowling latches supposed to stick up like that?" is welcome on my airplane any day.

What he said... (Nicely put by the way)

 

[Gorilla]

Not if somebody has flown the greatest plane ever, no other than the Fighting Falcon.!

Magnum!! You apparently have a new friend!

 

[JP4user]

Urband legend is that the cpt on the NW accident was known for pulling the CB for the aural warning.

If memory serves me correctly, it was determined that maintenace had pulled the cb before bringing the aircraft from the hanger.

 

[JP4user]

We call her "Bitchen Betty" on the 80.....

AA

They probably spent billions on researching a tone that would make male flight crews initiate prompt corrective action.

The most effective method of annoying a male into action was a female voice.

 

[glasspilot1]

If memory serves me correctly, it was determined that maintenace had pulled the cb before bringing the aircraft from the hanger.

If true, what happened to the cockpit pre-flight? Check all CB's in and check the T/O warning.

 

[JP4user]

If true, what happened to the cockpit pre-flight? Check all CB's in and check the T/O warning.

Sloppy preflight? No horn check required at the time?

The cb for t/o horn(if I remember) was really in a lousy place and easy to miss.