AA takes off without flaps!!!

[Whistlin' Dan]

I've never flown an Airbus A-300-600, and therefore have no better "chops" to question flap position than the private pilot in question. But I know one thing...Most transport-category aircraft use flaps for take-off most of the time. If I'd been sitting in the seat, you can bet your a$$ I would have said something to the crew. I would expect nothing less of an Airbus pilot sitting in my jump seat, who observed something about my operation or the configuration of my aircraft that semed at odds with everything he knew about flying large aircraft.

This guy saw something that didn't look right to him, so he called it to the attention of a crewmember. It was probably a difficult decision to make, but he acted correctly, IMHO.

Not to be critical of any of our departed brethren, but had some "lowly private pilot" questioned the crews of the DC-9 that (tried to) take off from Detroit without flaps, or the 727 at Dallas that did the same, tragedy would have been averted. Likewise, an attempted take-off from an insufficient runway of recent note. Wasn't there a 727 that made it to short final without the gear? In every case, all it would have taken was one person saying, "you guys don't use flaps for all take-offs?" or "using the short runway today?" or "XXX on final, CHECK YOUR GEAR!"to have made a difference.

Having an ATP dosn't make one immune from oversight or simple, dumb mistakes. Likewise, having a "mere" private pilot license doesn't make one less credible in their observance of things that don't seem right in or around the operation of airplanes. I'd rather answer a million dumb questions from the back over the course of a career, than to sift an airplane and a hundred and fifty people through the trees just once.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Likewise, having a "mere" private pilot license doesn't make one less credible in their observance of things that don't seem right in or around the operation of airplanes.

I've tried over and over again to say that aloud without busting up. You can't possibly be serious, can you? :laugh:

Have you ever sat in the grandstand at an air show and listened to all the ridiculous comments from the peanut gallery of aviation's finest?

BBB

 

[Morning Wood]

It was a requirement before the NWA accident as well. The takeoff warning horn did not work on the accident airplane.

Urband legend is that the cpt on the NW accident was known for pulling the CB for the aural warning.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I've tried over and over again to say that aloud without busting up. You can't possibly be serious, can you? :laugh:

Have you ever sat in the grandstand at an air show and listened to all the ridiculous comments from the peanut gallery of aviation's finest?

BBB

I'm as serious as a heart attack. Yes, I've heard the same inane comments you have at air shows and on the evening news, but you have to consider the source. They're usually made by people on the observer-side of the fence, not pilots.

I'm not a cop, but if see somebody sneaking into a window at 4 A.M., (something I'm not accustomed to seeing) I'll mention it to one. I'm not an A&P, but if I notice a castellated nut on a critical component that isn't cottered, (again, something I'm not used to seeing) I'll mention it to a mechanic. If it doesn't need one, they'll tell me. If it does, and my observation keeps a wheel from going through somebody's roof at 200 MPH, they'll thank me. Either way, it's no big deal to make sure.

There was a story (perhaps apocryphal) some time back of a legacy carrier's 767 waiting to take an active runway with red-streamered gear pins clearly in place. When asked by the trailing aircraft about the streamers, the 767 pilots dismissed them because they were "mere" non-sked freight pilots.

Hey, that's one way to get some valuable time off without having to hit the vacation bank...

People with absolutely NO knowledge of our business probably won't notice things that are out of place. They're happy to sit back and enjoy their in-flight magazines and play with their laptops. But the kind of guy who says to a flight crewmember "I'm just a private pilot, but are those cowling latches supposed to stick up like that?" is welcome on my airplane any day.

 

[embpic1]

I'm as serious as a heart attack. Yes, I've heard the same inane comments you have at air shows and on the evening news, but you have to consider the source. They're usually made by people on the observer-side of the fence, not pilots.

I'm not a cop, but if see somebody sneaking into a window at 4 A.M., (something I'm not accustomed to seeing) I'll mention it to one. I'm not an A&P, but if I notice a castellated nut on a critical component that isn't cottered, (again, something I'm not used to seeing) I'll mention it to a mechanic. If it doesn't need one, they'll tell me. If it does, and my observation keeps a wheel from going through somebody's roof at 200 MPH, they'll thank me. Either way, it's no big deal to make sure.

There was a story (perhaps apocryphal) some time back of a legacy carrier's 767 waiting to take an active runway with red-streamered gear pins clearly in place. When asked by the trailing aircraft about the streamers, the 767 pilots dismissed them because they were "mere" non-sked freight pilots.

Hey, that's one way to get some valuable time off without having to hit the vacation bank...

People with absolutely NO knowledge of our business probably won't notice things that are out of place. They're happy to sit back and enjoy their in-flight magazines and play with their laptops. But the kind of guy who says to a flight crewmember "I'm just a private pilot, but are those cowling latches supposed to stick up like that?" is welcome on my airplane any day.

What he said... (Nicely put by the way)

 

[Gorilla]

Not if somebody has flown the greatest plane ever, no other than the Fighting Falcon.!

Magnum!! You apparently have a new friend!

 

[JP4user]

Urband legend is that the cpt on the NW accident was known for pulling the CB for the aural warning.

If memory serves me correctly, it was determined that maintenace had pulled the cb before bringing the aircraft from the hanger.

 

[JP4user]

We call her "Bitchen Betty" on the 80.....

AA

They probably spent billions on researching a tone that would make male flight crews initiate prompt corrective action.

The most effective method of annoying a male into action was a female voice.

 

[glasspilot1]

If memory serves me correctly, it was determined that maintenace had pulled the cb before bringing the aircraft from the hanger.

If true, what happened to the cockpit pre-flight? Check all CB's in and check the T/O warning.

 

[JP4user]

If true, what happened to the cockpit pre-flight? Check all CB's in and check the T/O warning.

Sloppy preflight? No horn check required at the time?

The cb for t/o horn(if I remember) was really in a lousy place and easy to miss.

 

[glasspilot1]

Sloppy preflight? No horn check required at the time?

The cb for t/o horn(if I remember) was really in a lousy place and easy to miss.

I fly the 80 for AA. I'm not sure where the T/O horn cb is, I never touch it. The horn check is part of our cockpit preflight; the F/O usually does it. Most guys I know just push the throttles up to hear the horn the first time they walk into the cockpit. Also most Captains will test for NO horn on the taxi-out after the plane is configured for T/O. (amazingly enough the horn does not test for both engines running, ie, single engine taxi.)

 

[Bandit60]

I can think of a few accidents that needed a private pilot in back to query the flight crew about using flaps or not. It's called CRM. Better to be safe than sorry.

I have to agree. To question something like that when your life is on the line is not out of the question. It wasn't like he was telling them how to fly the airplane.

 

[Tri-holer]

I remember taking off from Colorado Springs in an F-100, the Fokker not the Hun. The pilot made a point of making a PA and telling the passengers that unlike most airliners, the Fokker was capable of taking off with no flaps and that was what we were going to do. One quick announcement and everybody was happy.

I too wouldn't mind hearing of something that seemed wrong .

 

[instructordude]

Magnum!! You apparently have a new friend!

just kidding

 

[Morning Wood]

If memory serves me correctly, it was determined that maintenace had pulled the cb before bringing the aircraft from the hanger.

Didn't a bunch of people come forward after this and claim to have either picked up airplanes from this guy with the CB pulled or had flown with him and had him do it? I seem to recall reading some stuff like that after it happened.
I'm sure if you really wanted to know where this CB was, a mechanic could show you.

 

[Ernst]

AA No-Flap Takeoffs for Fuel Savings

I was on an AA MD-80 flight about a year and a half ago when the Captain announced beforehand that the airplane would be traveling faster down the runway because of a fuel conserving reduced flap takeoff. I think he also mentioned that the wheels might be noiser when they were retracted. I enjoy flying on AA flights and was impressed by the Captain's forethought. It may have been too much information for a nervous nanny, but the junior wanna-be pilots out there probably thought it was interesting. For what it's worth, my old legacy carrier is still trying to figure out how to save fuel by reducing APU use. I wrote the CP about 5 years ago to suggest that. Good work. He's at his second job since leaving that carrier. They just announced that they are sending teams into the field to inventory and inspect GSE to ensure that the appropriate equipment is available at the gate. It's a few days late and a few billion dollars short, but still a great idea. The Captain who told me not to bother shutting off the APU as we walked away from the last flight of the day deserves his 50% paycut and pension in the toilet. P.S. there was a big fuel split the next day in the wing tanks because the APU ran for hours and hours needlessly. Everyone else at that carrier should be rewarded for their hard work. Well, not the guy who droned on and on for three days on my last trip at the company about how how excited he was at the prospect of making extra $$$ by picking up open time as the company cut back crews - even in the bus to the parking lot after the trip, he just wouldn't shut up about it. He deserves what he got. P.S. I probably made more than him last year flying outside of Part 121 ops. Oops, one more idiot to add to the list of those deserving their fate. The moron who, immediately after the furloughs were announced, exclaimed loudly in the junior base's crew room: "Well, at least I won't have to fly with so many new guys." You deserve your humble pie. Everyone else there who made it a joy to come to work and do my best to support the team, thank you. I hope you retire on easy street soon! Good luck to you and everyone else trying to save the industry. Nice job AA adapting and innovating to save a buck and some jobs while providing good service!